Herbert Anthony 8313 2nd Northants.

[Swinesheadvillage]

Hi

Herbert is commemorated on the Fletton War Memorial but I am struggling to find him on CWGC.

His pension records survive and are on Ancestry and FMP.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1114/images/miuk1914a_083143-01733?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=ewA252&_phstart=successSource&pId=48318

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007258376%2f01742&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7258376%2f124%2f1736

In short he served from Dec 1906 and in France from 6-11-14 to 2-1-15 when he was hospitalised with gastritis. Over the subsequent year in hospital his diagnosis was narrowed down to what I read to be stomach cancer. He was discharged as medically unfit on 5th Feb 1916 and died 18 days later, on 23rd Feb 1916. He is buried in Peterborough's Broadway Cemetery.

My query is twofold, can anyone find him on CWGC and if not, should he be commemorated there, given this criteria from their policy:-

Criteria for Commemoration

.1 Commonwealth Armed Forces

We commemorate people who served in the Commonwealth armed forces during the First or Second World War, whose death:

 occurred during the official war period; and

 was the result of:

 wounds inflicted or accident occurring during active service;

 disease contracted or commencing while on active service; or

 disease aggravated by active service.

military personnel who died post-discharge are commemorated if it is established that they meet the above criteria.

His pension papers state NO when asked if his infirmity was caused by enemy action.

Would be grateful for any thoughts.

Kind Regards

Derek

 

 

[George Rayner]

Odd that a Pension Card says died frostbitten?

George

[Cheshire22]

Have you looked at all the GRRF for said cemetery as his grave my be recorded on them but has classified as a non war grave

[chrisharley9]

Pension file answers our questions. His cancer was not regard as being caused or aggravated by military service.

 

Chris

[Swinesheadvillage]

George 

Many thanks for your interest. 

I think this is the pension card of his brorther, Fred, who is also on our memorial. This is a card I had not seen and will update his bio

Again, many thanks

Kind Regards

Derek

[George Rayner]

It does include  both brothers

 

George

[Swinesheadvillage]

Hi Chris

Should I not place any relevence on his diagnosis being made while in service?

Hi Cheshire 

I have checked the GRRF, its a civil grave

Many thanks to both of you for your interest.

Kind Regards

Derek 

 

Hi George

 

It does indeed. Frostbitten is a suprise!

Kind Regards

Derek

[chrisharley9]

9 minutes ago, Swinesheadvillage said:

Hi Chris

Should I not place any relevence on his diagnosis being made while in service?

 

Sorry no relevance at all. The relevant statement is at the bottom of page 745 which states not caused by military service, climate or active service. 

[Swinesheadvillage]

Hi Chris

Many thanks for the clarification, much appreciated. Now to try to work out the frostbitten reference.

Kind Regards

Derek

[kenf48]

I would suggest the highlighted criteria applies and agree with your initial observation. 

I'm curious as to why the pension attribution is considered relevant to CWGC commemoration. They are two separate issues and presumably the pension decision predates the IWGC and its declared mission.

I do not know how it can be determined the cancer predates his recall to the colours.  His record shows he was posted first to Egypt on 5 August 1914 and was considered fit enough to join the BEF in November 1914 prior to his admission to hospital.   He then has an all too common misdiagnosis.   As is so often the case an early death which may meet the critieria was not recorded, no doubt the family had done their grieving by then, and given the Army considered death was non-attribuable no record passed to IWGC.  The disease was certainly diagnosed (if not contracted) whilst on active service.  He was given the opportunity for surgery, which he declined, according to the CMO, "not unreasonably" and at the same time was given a 'terminally fatal' diagnosis prior to his medically unfit discharge.

Here is an example of a man whose cause of death, whilst serving, was cancer. 

It would be interesting to see what his pension record says.  As he died in hospital at Etaples he is buried and commemorated there.

I think you should submit the case and rely on the CWGC decision rather than any comments, including mine, on here.

[chrisharley9]

For a post discharge case to succeed with CWGC the cause of death as stated on the pension record must be caused or aggravated by military service. This is not stated on the pension file for Herbert Anthony.

Pte Foster is totally different case as he died due to cancer whilst in service in which case it does not matter what the cause of death is.

Chris

[PaulC78]

I wasn't able to find the card that George posted above, but a separate pension card gives his cause of death as "fever":

Unfortunately, I agree with Chris that this isn't a good case. The origin of his cancer is unknown and there is no evidence that it was aggravated by service during the war, but it appears that he died from other causes anyway.

[kenf48]

48 minutes ago, PaulC78 said:

I wasn't able to find the card that George posted above, but a separate pension card gives his cause of death as "fever":

Unfortunately, I agree with Chris that this isn't a good case. The origin of his cancer is unknown and there is no evidence that it was aggravated by service during the war, but it appears that he died from other causes anyway.

Whatever the merits of the case it’s not for the GWF to decide.  His service record is quite explicit as to his medical history.

 

[PaulC78]

30 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

Whatever the merits of the case it’s not for the GWF to decide.  His service record is quite explicit as to his medical history.

It's just constructive advice, which is what I think the OP came here looking for. If someone wants to buy a DC and put his case forward with the CWGC then best of luck to them and I hope he makes it, but they should also manage their expectations.

[George Rayner]

10 hours ago, PaulC78 said:

I wasn't able to find the card that George posted above, but a separate pension card gives his cause of death as "fever":

...and this morning neither can I!! And in the 'fever' card he is in the Warwickshire Regiment-which is his brother Frederick's.

George

[Swinesheadvillage]

Hi Chris, Ken, George and Paul

This all came from an emotional reatcion to seeing a local soldier serving with the colours for 8 years, with two months on the firing line, before being withdrawn with a mis-diagnosis for an ultimately fatal disease. He was discharged 18 days before his death, presumably a mutual choice, to die in the hands of his family, rather than the austerity of a military hospital. My emotional reaction being that this decision should not deny him commemoration.

If I do get a DC that gives cancer (or frostbite!) as the the cause of death, would this help? I absolutely understand that the arbiters of this would be CWGC not the GWF, to whom I am so grateful for help and advice.

Kind Regards

Derek

 

 

 

[kenf48]

47 minutes ago, Swinesheadvillage said:

This all came from an emotional reatcion to seeing a local soldier serving with the colours for 8 years, with two months on the firing line, before being withdrawn with a mis-diagnosis for an ultimately fatal disease. He was discharged 18 days before his death, presumably a mutual choice, to die in the hands of his family, rather than the austerity of a military hospital. My emotional reaction being that this decision should not deny him commemoration.

I think you put his case very eloquently, as you say it appears the only person who showed any sensitivity was the examining doctor who, apparently sent him home to die after he refused further treatment.  Those of us who have been through it can empathise with that sentiment, in fact a very modern response.   If he had opted for the operation he may well have died in service, and there would be no argument.

By  the CWGC own stated criteria and any emotional response rather than a bureaucratic decision in 1916 concerning money he should be commemorated.  He was clearly considered fit enough to serve on the Western Front. Given the state of medical science in 1914 who can say whether or not the cancer was present in August 1914, a change in bowel habits i.e. diaroheea was put down to 'diet' in July 1914 and he was declared fit for service in August. Seems to me they were just covering themselves, 'rest and diet much improved'.   How could they ever say cancer was attributable to his service?

I can see no mention of frostbite on his medical record.

 

 

 

 

[Swinesheadvillage]

Hi Ken

His service on the firing line was in the depth of the 1914 winter, so I suspect there was a chance of frostbite, but not as the condition that eventually killed him.

I am never one for nagging on and on but I did see this entry on the In From The Cold website:-

Name:  Thomas MORGAN   Date of Death:  20/02/1918 http://www.infromthecold.org/images/blank_1x1.gif

http://www.infromthecold.org/images/blank_1x1.gif

http://www.infromthecold.org/images/blank_1x1.gif

Rank:  Rifleman Service No:  7/4700 Age:  43 http://www.infromthecold.org/images/blank_1x1.gif

http://www.infromthecold.org/images/blank_1x1.gif

http://www.infromthecold.org/images/blank_1x1.gif

Regiment/Service:  Royal Irish Rifles Unit:  7 Bn http://www.infromthecold.org/images/blank_1x1.gif

http://www.infromthecold.org/images/blank_1x1.gif

http://www.infromthecold.org/images/blank_1x1.gif

Cause of Death:  Died post-discharge of carcinoma of the jaw http://www.infromthecold.org/images/blank_1x1.gif

http://www.infromthecold.org/images/blank_1x1.gif

http://www.infromthecold.org/images/blank_1x1.gif

Cemetery/Memorial:  Brookwood 1914-1918 Memorial, Surrey http://www.infromthecold.org/images/blank_1x1.gif

http://www.infromthecold.org/images/blank_1x1.gif

http://www.infromthecold.org/images/blank_1x1.gif

Date of Acceptance:  25/04/2018

 

What would be the difference between Herbert, diagnosed pre discharge, dying of stomach cancer 13 days post discharge and Thomas who died 6 months post discharge with jaw cancer?

Kind Regards

Derek

PS Sorry for the dreadful copy. D

Edited 4 November , 2021 by Swinesheadvillage
poor transcription

[PaulC78]

I'm not familiar with Morgan's case, but his service record indicates that the cancer was the result of an active service injury in France:

[Swinesheadvillage]

Paul

Thank you for the reply and especially taking the time to find the source information to answer my query on the difference between Herbert and Thomas.

Kind Regards

Derek

[Swinesheadvillage]

Hi

The DC came in today, Its on a PDF so I struggle to copy, but the pertinent information is:-

Occupation- Army Pensioner

Cause of death- accute bronchitis and heart failure. 

I can find nothing on his service records indicating either of these as an ailment on his discharge 13 days earlier, other than evening fevers. There is nothing on the DC that indicates that death was related to service (nor, indeed, to his cancer). Sadly it seems that this 'hardworking and thoroughly trustworthy man' will not be commemorated, other than in our Church.

Kind Regards

Derek