Unknown soldier burials in the UK

[Matlock1418]

12 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

The MoP have him as died of wounds.

GRO appear to have him dying

SHADBOLT, WILLIAM	23
GRO Reference: 1915  D Quarter in KINGS NORTON  Volume 06D  Page 23

this would appear to be be compatible with dying of wounds in Northfield Military Hospital in Birmingham

But why then buried in Coventry? - Perhaps next of kin there in 1915 or possibly his request [said to be his place of pre-war employment] though by 1918 next of kin appear to be in Edmonton, N.18.

:-) M

Edited 6 November , 2021 by Matlock1418

[ss002d6252]

1 minute ago, Matlock1418 said:

GRO appear to have him dying

SHADBOLT, WILLIAM	23
GRO Reference: 1915  D Quarter in KINGS NORTON  Volume 06D  Page 23

this would appear to be be compatible with dying of wounds in Northfield Military Hospital in Birmingham

But why then buried in Coventry? - Presumably next of kin there in 1915 or possibly his request [said to be his place of pre-war employment] though by 1918 next of kin appear to be in Edmonton, N.18.

:-) M

Someone managed to screw up the paperwork on place of death but managed to get the date right.  Somewhere along the way the information passed to the War Office and Records Office was 'corrupted'.

Craig

[Matlock1418]

On 02/11/2021 at 22:27, Ralphed said:

ID's unknown, recorded by the CWGC  in the UK somewhere.

Returning to the OP = It would be interesting to know how to find out/get these unknowns' locations from CWGC [UK and overseas]

:-) M

[Ralphed]

ss02 & Matlock 

I have the soldiers effects entry for Shadbolt but never noticed that it said KIA and with no body/grave in the Loos area, it could go some way to explaining why he's named on the Loos memorial. I'm not suggesting his name be removed from the memorial, well not before i can get over there to see it. Why he's buried in Coventry is a bit of mystery as our family roots are in old & New Southgate and silver street school where his father was caretaker of and so was William an assistant for a while is not far away. 

What i do know is that prior to the war he went to Coventry and worked at Humber motors. I cannot find a marriage for him but i get the feeling that he did have a partner and possibly a child or two. I only say this as our visit to his grave in August 2017 we took a framed photo and gave the headstone a tidy up. For various reasons we couldn't get back to replace for two years but managed it in March 2019.

When we got there someone else had placed a bird feeder in the shape of a poppy but there was also another photo frame. In it, was the weather beaten, faded remnants of a photo of someone and an illegible written note taped to the back of the frame. My first thought was that to mark the centenary of the end of the war that all of the WW1 graves had been commemorated in some way by the locals but all the others i saw were much the same as we'd seen them 2 years earlier. I've asked most of my family if they've ever been to Coventry but always get a negative response. Most take an interest in what I research but that's about it, so possibly he did have family in the area and one of his descendants placed he photo frame.

We was back there on the 106th anniversary of his death and left a new photo. 

 

Lastly it was never my intention to go off topic but i do appreciate the interaction.

 

Ralph  

[thetrenchrat22]

As the original poster’s reply from the CWGC was to quick.  I also sent a request to the enquiries team on the 3rd November and got this reply this morning 

i asked for details of all the unknowns sailors, soldiers and airman for both world wars in England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland and Isle of Man.  
 

 

Dear Mr 

 

Thank you for your email below.

 

Owing to the vast amount of information you have requested, around 1500 casualties, this is not something that we would be willing or able to provide to you.

 

If you are interested in specific graves, we will happily provide you with the required information but this would only be done on a case by case basis.

 

Kind Regards

 

Martin Skelly

Commemorations Support Coordinator

 

[Ralphed]

thetrenchrat22

Is it me or did he just stop short of telling you go and do one?

[JasonMc]

1 hour ago, Ralphed said:

thetrenchrat22

Is it me or did he just stop short of telling you go and do one?

I though the same myself.  I think the tone intended there is clear enough and he didn’t stop that far short…!

A surprising unmannerly answer from CWGC in my opinion. He could have left out the word ‘willing’ to avoid appearing discourteous. 

[thetrenchrat22]

10 hours ago, Ralphed said:

thetrenchrat22

Is it me or did he just stop short of telling you go and do one?

I think so.  
 

it’s strange that they can’t or won’t provide this type of information as they have information for the last 100 years WW1 or 75 years WW2. 
 

it seems to me, that they don’t care about the paper work side of the unknown graves.  
 

since the mid 90’s, the way to look for those with known graves and changed considerably but the unknowns have been left in the dark

[PaulC78]

Spotted this in the CWGC grave documents while looking up another man... Whitby (Larpool) Cemetery apparently has 19 unidentified men from HMS Rohilla.

https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/45920/whitby-larpool-cemetery/

[Matlock1418]

I have just recently contacted the CWGC re: burials of unknown soldiers, sailors and airmen in England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland,
Republic of Ireland, Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, 1914 - 1921.  I didn't dare to extend my enquiry to overseas burials!

Three days later and they have sent me two small spreadsheets = UK and RoI - seemingly an impressive turnaround - or was it too quick?

Very few soldiers are listed on these spreadsheets - there is the one at Westminster Abbey [!], Unknown Commonwealth Force

and other unknown soldiers also at:

Brookwood Cemetery = Mahn 180922, Unknown Indian Regiment

Colchester Cemetery = S.2.86, Unknown Commonwealth Force

Dover (St James) Cemetery = M.I.29, Unknown Commonwealth Force, 17 November 1915

Greenock Cemetery = MMM.59, Unknown Commonwealth Force

Manchester Southern Cemetery = Q.385, Unknown Commonwealth Force

Newry (St Patrick) Church of Ireland Churchyard = 5.230, Unknown Commonwealth Force, 3 Nov 1916

South Shoebury (St Andrew) Churchyard = two Unknown Commonwealth Force, but no grave refs provided, 

Swanage (Northbrook) Cemetery = D.C.20, Unknown Commonwealth Force

Whickenham (Garden House) Cemetery = 1.c.314, Unknown Commonwealth Force

Grangemoran Military Cemetery = CE New Plot 741, Unknown Commonwealth Force, and also CE New Plot 756, Unknown Commonwealth Force

Predominently it is sailors who are listed on these spreadsheets - Naval, incl. Royal Marines, and Mercantile Marine seafarers [very occasionally with details of ship]

Airmen do not seem represented.

There are included many other 'unknowns' of apparently known foreign nationality [Belgian, German] with some details on rank, etc.

I have absolutely no idea how complete CWGC's reply to me was.

M

Edited 13 January , 2022 by Matlock1418
typo

[thetrenchrat22]

On 13/01/2022 at 17:22, Matlock1418 said:

I have just recently contacted the CWGC re: burials of unknown soldiers, sailors and airmen in England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland,
Republic of Ireland, Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, 1914 - 1921.  I didn't dare to extend my enquiry to overseas burials!

Three days later and they have sent me two small spreadsheets = UK and RoI - seemingly an impressive turnaround - or was it too quick?

Very few soldiers are listed on these spreadsheets - there is the one at Westminster Abbey [!], Unknown Commonwealth Force

and other unknown soldiers also at:

Brookwood Cemetery = Mahn 180922, Unknown Indian Regiment

Colchester Cemetery = S.2.86, Unknown Commonwealth Force

Dover (St James) Cemetery = M.I.29, Unknown Commonwealth Force, 17 November 1915

Greenock Cemetery = MMM.59, Unknown Commonwealth Force

Manchester Southern Cemetery = Q.385, Unknown Commonwealth Force

Newry (St Patrick) Church of Ireland Churchyard = 5.230, Unknown Commonwealth Force, 3 Nov 1916

South Shoebury (St Andrew) Churchyard = two Unknown Commonwealth Force, but no grave refs provided, 

Swanage (Northbrook) Cemetery = D.C.20, Unknown Commonwealth Force

Whickenham (Garden House) Cemetery = 1.c.314, Unknown Commonwealth Force

Grangemoran Military Cemetery = CE New Plot 741, Unknown Commonwealth Force, and also CE New Plot 756, Unknown Commonwealth Force

Predominently it is sailors who are listed on these spreadsheets - Naval, incl. Royal Marines, and Mercantile Marine seafarers [very occasionally with details of ship]

Airmen do not seem represented.

There are included many other 'unknowns' of apparently known foreign nationality [Belgian, German] with some details on rank, etc.

I have absolutely no idea how complete CWGC's reply to me was.

M

It’s seems strange, that when I asked, they wouldn’t provide me with a list.

 

yet you asked and got one.  If it’s complete, I don’t know, 

[George Rayner]

Matlock-while looking for a grave marker came across this 

There are 267 Commonwealth burials of the 1914-1918 war, 1 being unidentified, of which 50 are in the War Plot, while 11 Australian graves are together in a group nearby, the remainder being scattered. After the war a Cross of Sacrifice was erected on a site overlooking both the plot and the group of war graves, in honour of all the servicemen buried here.

 

There are also 114 Commonwealth burials of the 1939-1945 war here, 1 of which is unidentified.

for Colchester Cemetery. 

George

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, George Rayner said:

There are 267 Commonwealth burials of the 1914-1918 war, 1 being unidentified

1 hour ago, George Rayner said:

for Colchester Cemetery. 

Thanks - So that seems to have confirmed one in the list above! [Then again, one suspects it's the same source = CWGC!!]

M

Edited 16 January , 2022 by Matlock1418

[George Rayner]

Yes it is...but how did CWGC get the numbers for you?

George

[Matlock1418]

3 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

but how did CWGC get the numbers for you?

That they didn't reveal - I'm sort of quessing that they [perhaps?] hold a bigger spreadsheet which they don't want to share more widely with the 'Great Unwashed'!

Now I wonder about asking for the overseas unknowns ??? ;-/

M

 

Edited 16 January , 2022 by Matlock1418

[ss002d6252]

18 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

That they didn't reveal - I'm sort of quessing that they [perhaps?] hold a bigger spreadsheet which they don't want to share more widely with the 'Great Unwashed'!

Now I wonder about asking for the overseas unknowns ??? ;-/

M

I can never see why there is the secrecy over details of the unknowns.

It would be interesting to know if they have details that are more readily available than their site shows.

Richard Laughton clearly demonstrated that they have scanned the returns in to their side for the unknown but they're not front-facing unless you fiddle with the URLs.

Craig

[Matlock1418]

3 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

I can never see why there is the secrecy over details of the unknowns.

Baffles me too.

If there is anyone from CWGC reading this thread = Do yourselves, and the rest of us, a big favour - please make them readily available. Please ...

2 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

but they're not front-facing unless you fiddle with the URLs.

That I think would get me into a lot of trouble. ;-)

M

[ss002d6252]

I just don't understand why, as a body with their remit, people have so much trouble getting information from them.

Are they afraid it will lead to an increase in the number of cases that ultimately need to be reviewed?

Craig

[Matlock1418]

5 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

I just don't understand why, as a body with their remit, people have so much trouble getting information from them.

Are they afraid it will lead to an increase in the number of cases that ultimately need to be reviewed?

Possibly!

Or put them out of a job answering enquiries. ???

M

[thetrenchrat22]

I do find it strange, the attitude of the CWGC towards the Unknowns not just buried in their cemeteries across the Western Front.  

they have had the information on the Unknowns for years and years but have not acted upon it.  

In May 2017, I was walking around Tyne Cot, I came across an Unknown Captain of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, as there were some known Royal Welsh Fusiliers, I had a look at the cwgc records for them and the Burial Return as had the details of this Unknown Captain on it.  The return showed the captain had ribbons of DSO and South African war.  Within 5 minutes, I was able to have the name of a potential candidate.
 

qoute ‘Or put them out of a job answering enquiries. ???’ 
 

In the old days, you could write to them and ask for details of a casualty but it would cost you £2 

now every is now online, so the need of a enquiry team is no longer needed, which could be deployed to looking at the cases they receive.  

 

[Matlock1418]

51 minutes ago, thetrenchrat22 said:

now every is now online,

Not everything!

51 minutes ago, thetrenchrat22 said:

so the need of a enquiry team is no longer needed, which could be deployed to looking at the cases they receive.  

They will still need somebody to deal with the errors and queries relating to the known!

But agree, more could be released regarding the unknowns.

As has been commented - perhaps worried about an upsurge in business. ??

Strange that given their remit they do often appear shy in dealing with such issues - and they do require a fantastically high burden of proof for many changes and/or new commemorations = almost as if they don't want to do it.

Not anti-CWGC - but please CWGC, up your game.  Please ...

M

[Chesterboy]

A guy called Ed Hanley an expat from Cheshire in the last 12 hours.  Posted on Facebook,  a list of Unknown Soldiers of the Cheshire Regiment who are known to be buried in Cemeteries in France Belgium and Rest of the World for both WW1 & WW2.  
 

it seems that he can get a list of unknown Cheshires but the cwgc are unwilling to provide a of Unknowns buried within the UK

[andrew pugh]

Good Evening to you All

In my personal opinion the C W G C is not the organisation it once was. It now seems once again in my opinion to be run as a big business. They say they have employed more people because of the workload that they have to deal with. I have not personally noticed any real improvement in expediting the cases that I have presented to them for identification, it seem to take just as long or longer. They don't even contact you with any updates of cases like they used to. So much for the extra staff, and to top it off there is only 1 person at the National Army Museum (NAM) to deal "all" the cases before they are sent to the JCCC for adjudication.                      

A  good friend of mine who is a fellow member of this forum contacted the C W G C  a while back and asked for some information that are held within some files that they have, and was refused. Could he ask to see that file under the the Freedom of Information Act?

Kind Regards

Andy

 

                  

[Matlock1418]

16 hours ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

My feeling is-having spoken to another member of GWF about this-is that it is dealt with somewhere on GWF already-   CWGC is a multi-government organisation and my memory is that it is, therefore outside of normal UK FOI.

     The second point is that CWGC has made a big song-and-dance about opening it's archives to researchers  in recent years.  It may well be that the information IS available on a trip to Maidenhead.  Please remember that  a common reason for refusal of FOI is that the information is openly available elsewhere. It may well be that an exemption has been claimed on this basis. With FOI refusals, the authority or exemption is usually quoted in the response.  If the info. is available by visit to Maidenhead, then an FOI refusal is in good order-it is not the purpose of FOI to save the expenses and time of the researcher in providing materials that are openly available anyway.

My feeling is similar = FOI doesn't apply.

The problem is that it is often is so really hard getting detailed info out of CWGC, with or without an often difficult visit to them at Maidenhead.

Most specialist enquires made of CWGC are probably from researchers who are generally 'on their side'!  I feel sure that CWGC could effect a positive multiplier force if they just embraced external researchers/enquirers.

I was very pleased and grateful to get that bit of info, above, about "Unknowns" in the UK from them by e-mail   ... but so much more to try and access when it comes to "Unknowns" generally. 

M

[PaulC78]

Just a thought, but the IFCP website lists all war grave cemeteries and gives the numbers for each type of grave, including the unknowns. You would have to search for this information manually, but it's there if anyone needs it.