Enlarged magazine for the SMLE?

[Felix C]

I saw on this site, https://www.instmiltech.com/mauser-trench-gewehr-98/, a Mauser Trench Gewehr 98 which was fitted with a 20 round box magazine. Was similar attempted on the SMLE? Did soldiers have extra charged 10 round magazines?  or both?

[JMB1943]

Towards the end of the war, I believe, there was a demand in some quarters for a 20-round magazine for the SMLE.

A few (now very rare and therefore valuable) were made for trials.

However, it was found  that the effort to load these 20 rounds was very tiring on the thumbs, and these larger mags were not put into general service.

Regards,

JMB

[pierssc]

1 hour ago, Felix C said:

 Did soldiers have extra charged 10 round magazines?  

No, the magazine, though removable for cleaning, stayed in the rifle.  Soldiers carried thin metal chargers holding 5 rounds.  These fitted into slots in a bridge over the receiver, and the rounds could be quickly loaded into the magazine by a straight downward thrust of the thumb.  A quick Image search for "303 charger" will show you any number of examples.

Edited 27 October , 2021 by pierssc

[Felix C]

56 minutes ago, pierssc said:

No, the magazine, though removable for cleaning, stayed in the rifle.  Soldiers carried thin metal chargers holding 5 rounds.  These fitted into slots in a bridge over the receiver, and the rounds could be quickly loaded into the magazine by a straight downward thrust of the thumb.  A quick Image search for "303 charger" will show you any number of examples.

I own several SMLE among others.  Interesting in the 2nd Boer War TMI troopers carried extra charged magazines for the Lee-Metford. One attached to the trigger guard via a small chain for quick changing.

Edited 27 October , 2021 by Felix C

[4thGordons]

41 minutes ago, Felix C said:

I own several SMLE among others.  Interesting in the 2nd Boer War TMI troopers carried extra charged magazines for the Lee-Metford. One attached to the trigger guard via a small chain for quick changing.

I would love to see a source for this. All official documents I have seen indicate that the link attaching the magazine (continued onto the Magazine Lee-Enfield by the way) was to prevent loss and detachment. I have never heard of the issue of extra magazines and it seems to run contrary to everything I have read about use, the development of the charger loading system etc. I would bet I could recharge a magazine with 10 rounds from 2 chargers quicker than anyone could remove a fresh magazine from a pouch, remove an empty one (even if you just let it hand on the link) and put a new one into place -- removing an empty ShtLE magazine is virtually a 2 handed job- as is correctly seating a new one (and I have never tried it with a loaded one which would complicate things further). I am reasonably certain I have read instructions in musketry manuals etc expressly forbidding the removal of magazines "except for cleaning" but I would need to check.

In many ways the MLE magazine is a very clever piece of design but the feed lips are very temperamental and subject to damage and removing this would risk this every time -- and in addition you would have to ensure the lips on a second magazine were identical and adjusted to the rifle.

I have to say I am rather skeptical but would be really interesting is hearing the source of this.

@JMB1943 I have never heard the "tired thumb" explanation of the 20rnd magazine before, interesting.

It was officially called the Magazine MkI No4 and 100,000 were ordered. according to Skennerton by August 1918 120,000 had been issued and an additional 30,000 were stored at Weedon.

The main reason for the extension was interestingly NOT increased firepower (remember it already had double the Mauser/Berthier M1916)-- it was that the recharging process had been found to be the main source of mud and dirt entering the rifle (causing jams etc) and it was thought that larger capacity would mean fewer opportunities for that to happen.

IIRC the main objection to the magazine was not that it was harder to load (it was just 4 charger clips rather than 2) but that the last clip especially really unbalanced the rifle and the magazine as a whole was found to be detrimental to gripping the rifle for bayonet fighting. (my recollection of Skennerton -- I will look up the page but that is my memory)

Chris

[Felix C]

Frank Percy Crozier in his Angels on Horseback is the TMI 2nd Boer War source.

TMI is of course Thorneycroft's Mounted Infantry

Edited 28 October , 2021 by Felix C

[awjdthumper]

8 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

I would love to see a source for this. All official documents I have seen indicate that the link attaching the magazine (continued onto the Magazine Lee-Enfield by the way) was to prevent loss and detachment. I have never heard of the issue of extra magazines and it seems to run contrary to everything I have read about use, the development of the charger loading system etc.

The Lee-Metford was originally provided with a spare magazine but this was withdrawn in Oct 1890 (LOC 6235). Although hard to understand now, at the time, the Army was pre-occupied with the concern that soldiers would waste ammunition. Giving them a spare magazine appears to have raised that concern even further. They must also have been concerned over loosing magazines if the soldiers swapped them over - hence the reason for chaining one to the weapon.

I have never read anywhere of Boer War soldiers carrying spare magazines but it wouldn't surprise me if some irregular troops did given there was no charger loading available. In fact it would surprise me if they didn't carry at least one spare magazine although this may have been limited by availability.

[4thGordons]

Thanks to you both. I stand corrected.

Worth noting that the original Medford magazine was 8 rounds single stack rather than 10 but still more than the Mauser although that could be reloaded using charger/stripper clips.

Chris

[reese williams]

[Felix C]

4 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

Thanks to you both. I stand corrected.

Worth noting that the original Medford magazine was 8 rounds single stack rather than 10 but still more than the Mauser although that could be reloaded using charger/stripper clips.

Chris

Crozier mentions it was due to the LM requiring single cartridge loading and that was not practical on horseback in a situation requiring reloading under pressure. When I read this I thought of US soldiers and their single round loading Krag and asked on an 1898 dedicated site and was told some troopers made their own quick loading aids in the field. This was from experience in protracted combat experience in the Philippines as the Span-Am war was brief. 

U.S. Army looked into as well. 

Edited 28 October , 2021 by Felix C

[Wigeon]

Entry in BEF QMG War Diary for 17 May 1917, TNA WO 95-34-4. " Extra magazines for rifles. To War Office requesting 100,000 extra magazines should be sent each to Calais and Havre. Note This part issue is due to the different opinions expressed by Formations as to the utility of having a second magazine for each rifle. In OB/1924 of 19 April to War Office, the opinion was expressed that a certain number of extra magazines should be placed at the disposal of Armies for those units who considered a second magazine an advantage." No suggestion why it might be an advantage or what they would be used for.

Re 20 round Magazine, Appendix E of the  Feb 1918 War Diary for the Canadian Corps ADOS is a one page summary of trials carried out with it. Amongst the interesting snippets   the report notes that " The rapid fire so obtained is more certain than when chargers are used, the firer having more time to devote to his aim, owing to the time saved in loading. " and that the " Magazine in no way interferes with the use of the bayonet."

[Felix C]

Thanks everyone. Rarely stray beyond naval questions. Appreciate all the responses. 

[4thGordons]

20 minutes ago, Wigeon said:

Entry in BEF QMG War Diary for 17 May 1917, TNA WO 95-34-4. " Extra magazines for rifles. To War Office requesting 100,000 extra magazines should be sent each to Calais and Havre. Note This part issue is due to the different opinions expressed by Formations as to the utility of having a second magazine for each rifle. In OB/1924 of 19 April to War Office, the opinion was expressed that a certain number of extra magazines should be placed at the disposal of Armies for those units who considered a second magazine an advantage." No suggestion why it might be an advantage or what they would be used for.

Re 20 round Magazine, Appendix E of the  Feb 1918 War Diary for the Canadian Corps ADOS is a one page summary of trials carried out with it. Amongst the interesting snippets   the report notes that " The rapid fire so obtained is more certain than when chargers are used, the firer having more time to devote to his aim, owing to the time saved in loading. " and that the " Magazine in no way interferes with the use of the bayonet."

This is really interesting! Do you know --or  is there any way of ascertaining if these magazines were actually procured/sent or if this remained a request or perhaps was superseded by the 20rnd magazine (coincidentally for the same number but a year later)

I would assume there might be contracts in the Ministry of Munitions files if the order was actually placed?

Chris

[Wigeon]

I don't have a complete run of the QMG diaries, so can't say if the subject re-appears. It is on the to-do list. Annoyingly I have come across refs to spare mags in other war diaries but I can't currently find them in my indexes.

 Not really qualified to comment on the chances of the contract details turning up.

 

[JMB1943]

21 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

 

21 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

@JMB1943 I have never heard the "tired thumb" explanation of the 20rnd magazine before, interesting.

Chris,

I wish that I could cite chapter and verse for you, but did not keep a note.

Regards,

JMB

 

 

 

[Felix C]

1 minute ago, JMB1943 said:

 

Chris,

I wish that I could cite chapter and verse for you, but did not keep a note.

Regards,

JMB

 

 

 

I am guessing it is the repetitive nature of manually reloading magazines from single rounds as one's thumb presses down on the rounds in the magazine to maintain downward pressure on the spring to ease inserting a new round.  It is an irritating task to reload many such magazines. Anyone with a modern high capacity pistol knows the experience if intending to shoot several magazines at the range and prep to do so.

[Wigeon]

The aforementioned Canadian report states " No appreciable difficulty in loading the last five rounds into the magazine was experienced." Note the qualifier. 

[4thGordons]

5 hours ago, Felix C said:

I am guessing it is the repetitive nature of manually reloading magazines from single rounds as one's thumb presses down on the rounds in the magazine to maintain downward pressure on the spring to ease inserting a new round. 

But by the time the 20 round magazine was being used it would have been loaded with 4 five round chargers ( hence only 4 pushes with the thumb)  and the Canadian reference to “the last 5 rounds” - in fact by 1918 I think SAA was pre packed in bandoliers of 10x 5 round chargers.

Chris

Edited 29 October , 2021 by 4thGordons
correcting on to only!

[Felix C]

10 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

But by the time the 20 round magazine was being used it would have been loaded with 4 five round chargers ( hence only 4 pushes with the thumb)  and the Canadian reference to “the last 5 rounds” - in fact by 1918 I think SAA was pre packed in bandoliers of 10x 5 round chargers.

Chris

Having never used a modern magazine speedloader I do not know the about of thumb pressure required to load 13, 15, etc. pistol rounds at one push. Having loaded single pistol round into a magazine which was nearly full, the 13, 15 round capacity, demonstrated much more  thumb pressure was needed when loading the last few rounds due to the compressed magazine spring. I could see that would be the case if attempt to push a stripper clip of rounds into a 20round magazine as the magazine spring compresses and increased the pressure needed to insert the rounds.  Similar for rifle rounds although I have only done the exericise with 5.56mm which has less mass than a .303.  12.3grams vs. 37grams respectively. A 9mm is 8.3grams and felt heavier than the 5.56mm rifle cartridge to push in due to the surface area of the spring plate being smaller. 

Edited 29 October , 2021 by Felix C

[4thGordons]

The closest experience I have had is loading 30 round Bren magazines with .303 and also 20 round L1A1 (SLR) magazines in 7.62  and while I agree there is somewhat more pressure needed with the last few rounds I didn't find it significant. I believe in service practice was often to only load the Bren magazines to 28 to avoid over-compressing the spring, but this was always the reason I was given - not because the last two were too difficult to load.  I do appreciate the point you are making re the compressed spring of course, but the question is whether the difficulty was significant enough to make a practical difference

The Canadian report quoted by Wigeon above seems to suggest that loading the last 5 rounds presented no "appreciable" difficulty.

As @reese williams has or had an example perhaps he has first hand experience? I have examined 20rnd Enfield magazines but never loaded one.

Chris

[reese williams]

This thread prompted me to go dig the twenty-round magazine out of the safe and load up some chargers. I need to caveat what follows with stating that because of some prior hand surgeries and celebrating too many birthdays I have significantly reduced strength in my hands compared to someone the age and physical condition of a serving soldier. 

The rifle I used for this comparison was a SSA No.3 MkIII* rather than the MkI shown in the photo above. The MkI just happened to be the rifle that was out of the safe the day I took the picture. 

First I loaded two chargers into the standard ten-round magazine. I did this a couple of times. Then I installed the twenty-round magazine and loaded four chargers. The first two chargers load with about the same effort as loading the first charger in a ten-round magazine. The third charger is about like the second charger in the ten-round magazine. The fourth charger took more effort and the magazine did start to exhibit some signs of coil stack. I was only able to load the first two rounds from the fourth charger. However, I could load the last three rounds singly without any special effort. I believe that a healthy 18-30 year old with normal hand strength could load the fourth charger completely without undue effort.

The loaded magazine does make the rifle noticeably heavier but the balance stays pretty much the same, the weight falling into the forward hand. If shooting off-hand, i.e. standing, unsupported the extra weight would get tiring quickly. Using improvised supports such as sandbags or even resting the forward hand against a tree or post would render it a non-issue. It does change the feel of the rifle though.

Chris - we were typing simultaneously. Hope this provides some insight.

Edited 29 October , 2021 by reese williams
typo correction

[4thGordons]

Brilliant! Thanks for going to that effort. Very much appreciated.

Chris

[MikB]

On 29/10/2021 at 13:19, reese williams said:

This thread prompted me to go dig the twenty-round magazine out of the safe and load up some chargers.

Would the use of the 20-round magazine present difficulties in shooting from behind low cover?  It looks as if it might. 

I don't recall ever reading or being told this, but I'd always simply assumed that was the reason it wasn't taken forward.

[reese williams]

Possibly if you were prone on a hard surface like a parking lot. It certainly doesn't protrude as much as the magazine on an M-16 or AK-47. I don't think it would be much or any of an issue. If anything I think over the long haul it would be more susceptible to unintentional damage from getting banged into/by things, especially in a trench. I could see the sides getting dinged in causing problems with feeding/loading. I think in the end it was an attempt to solve the problem of dirt and mud getting into the magazine and action when in reality there just wasn't a way to solve that problem.

[Sarchet]

A note on the spare magazines originally issued with the Magazine Lee-Metford: because they were withdrawn so quickly, the pouch for the spare magazine is one of the rarest issues pieces of the Slade-Wallace equipment.