196788 Spr Richard Robert Burton

[OwenMartin]

And for anyone interested I’m also doing research on my Welsh side of the same in particular WR/551025-196788 Spr Richard Robert Burton I have his Medal index card but am struggling to find out anything else of his service my Nan thinks he was in Egypt but I have no idea 

[David Kinsella]

Hi, Owen A quick look has found him in the BW & V medal roll, the description mentions 'Inland Water Transport' Royal Engineers.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41629_611411_5493-00039?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=7c8e1bef82d5d05ecb38716b2f4d7822&usePUB=true&_phsrc=EBf61&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=3104764

 

[OwenMartin]

Thanks David, the BW & B medal rolls what does that mean and thank you for the other information 

[David Kinsella]

Sorry Owen, It means British War and Victory Medal roll. Those medals were awarded to your man. The WR prefix service number puts him in a Royal Engineers transport unit. They were renumbered in 1918 (March, I think). The medal roll is titled 'Royal Engineers IW D'. I think, that is 'Inland Waterways & Docks.' I'm a relative beginner at this, so others may know better & certainly more.

Regards. D.

[OwenMartin]

Thank you Dave, 

ill have a go at looking for his medals and do some more research

Owen

[George Rayner]

He has a Pension Card-part copied thanks to Fold3/Ancestry

Which doesn't tell us a great deal!

George

 

[PRC]

21 minutes ago, OwenMartin said:

the BW & B medal rolls what does that mean and thank you for the other information 

All those who served in a Theatre of War had an entitlement to the British War Medal (BW or BWM) and Victory Medal (V or VM), but for an individual to only receive those two means he did not serve in a Theatre of War until some point on or after the 1st January 1916. There were additional medals for men who served in a Theatre of War before that time. See this webpage on our  parent site, The Long, Long Trail. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/the-british-campaign-medals-for-the-great-war/

To administer the issuing of the medals, the clerks at each army records office produced service medals rolls for each regiment or corps, (Medical \ Engineers \ Artillery etc). Believe the Royal Engineers were all dealt with at Chatham. These rolls usually ran to thousand of pages. The pages for the combined BWM and VM service medal rolls are usually dated late spring \ early summer of 1919.

To keep track of where each individual appeared on those rolls, the records office clerk then raised a Medal Index Card, (or more accurately Medal Rolls Index Card), so they didn't have to wade through those thousands of pages. The MiC for Sapper Burton is the document in your opening post. The administrative reference number shown against his VM & BWM entitlement, RE/104 B16 Page 4250 is the specific page in a specific roll - which you can only see on Ancestry with a subscription.

However very, very likely there is no additional information on the Roll. The ones for the Corps tend to be very basic. I don't have a subscription to Ancestry at the moment but I've just checked out a random sample of ones I've downloaded in the past and there is no mention of any specific unit being served with.

As to the man himself, it looks like his service records were amongst those that went up in flames in WW2, when German bombs hit the London warehouse where they were being stored.

A quick look at service numbers near 196788 brings up that:-

196783 Charles Bovill, who also served with the Inland Waterways & Docks part of the Royal Engineers, does not have surviving service records, but was discharged before the end of the war on health grounds. As an honourable discharge he was entitled to wear the Silver War Badge. The administrative document for that, the Silver War Badge Roll, shows he enlisted \ was conscripted on the 10th August 1916.

196797 David Dando has surviving service records. Unfortunately FindMyPast has now decided to keep crashing on me when I try to view a document, so will check it out later.

I believed the WR numbers were initially issued as part of a renumbering rather than a change of unit - but a search of the forum may well turn up more on that.

Richard Robert Burtons' work with the Inland Waterways & Docks, and subsequently the Inland Waterways & Transport, (i.e. barges & canal boats, etc) could well have seen him out in Egypt, but may be difficult to prove. Is there likely to be anything in the civil records - marriage, or births of children during the period when he might have been serving? The related certificates could have more about him under Grooms \ Fathers occupation.  And if you know where he was likely to have been living, local newspapers and the likes of the Absent Voters Lists for 1918 & 1919 may also help flesh things out. For more on how the latter can help see https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

Hope that helps,
Peter

[ss002d6252]

https://www.fold3.com/image/700347497?terms=551025

The pension card tells us he was originally discharge under the Class Z scheme (Z/RE/5720) and the claim was then dealt with under region 5 (%/MB/1448).

There's a reference to 14 Aug 1916 on the card without further context but it appears to be his enlistment date as per Peter's post.

Craig

[OwenMartin]

Thanks everyone for the information, 

I’ll ask my name if she has anything or knows anything and I’ll continue my research

Owen

[David Kinsella]

good luck 👍🏻

[George Rayner]

51 minutes ago, PRC said:

The administrative reference number shown against his VM & BWM entitlement, RE/104 B16 Page 4250 is the specific page in a specific roll - which you can only see on Ancestry with a subscription.

However very, very likely there is no additional information on the Roll. The ones for the Corps tend to be very basic. I don't have a subscription to Ancestry at the moment but I've just checked out a random sample of ones I've downloaded in the past and there is no mention of any specific unit being served with.

As per Peter's comment

Courtesy Ancestry

George

[OwenMartin]

Thanks everyone for all the information an help 

 

Owen

[PRC]

It’s taken umpteen goes but finally got to see the service record for 196797 David Dando . He was subsequently WR/341935.

David, a 37 year old married labourer then living at 21 Archibald Street, Newport. Monmouthshire, was called up on the 11th August 1916. He had served previously in the Royal Engineers. He was posted to the Inland Water Transport section of the Royal Engineers.

His identity certificate issued on the 11th August 1916 records his trade as Platelayer Fitters Helper. The relevant sections of records are very faded but possibly he worked for the Great Western Railways (G.W.R.) There is no mention of which Depot he reported to for his initial training, other than that his paperwork was authorised at Sandwich on the 31st August 1916.

Some of the pages record him with a middle name of Thomas.

He served in the Middle East, having sailed from the UK on the 10th September 1916. His records are totally silent about where and with what unit he specifically served. Stayed out there until 1919.

There is a 30 year old married man, David T. Dando, recorded on the 1911 Census of England & Wales as the head of household at 21 Archibald Street, Haindee, Newport. Monmouthshire.His occupation is given as General Labourer doing Shipwork.

So another married man with a South Wales connection, of roughly the same age as Richard Robert Burton.

However there are also surviving service records for 196802 Bertram John Free. He too was called up on the 11th August 1916 and his attestation approved at Sandwich on the 31st August 1916. But Bertram was a 39 year old married Commercial Traveller, then living at Tooting, London. He had originally attested under the Derby Scheme on the 11th December 1915. A medical board in May 1916 put restrictions on his fitness for military service as a he a double ingroinal hernia – he was classified BII and at one point in 1917 he was downgraded to CI. The only unit I can see in his record is the I.W.T. Depot at Poplar at when he was promoted in November 1917. At some point he was renumbered WR/310203.

So I suspect while 196783 Charles Bovill may have originally bee mobilised 10th August 1916 and 196797 David Dando & 196802 Bertram Free on the 11th August 1916, the date of the 16th August 1916 recorded on of the pension cards for Richard Robert Burton may still be a correct mobilisation date. It could well be that the system was playing administrative catch-up and numbers were issued en blocby the time the attestations were confirmed on the 31st August 1916.

Indeed a look at the names for this batch shows a semi- alphabetical order.

196783 Bovill, Charles
196784 Bareham, Mark
196785 –
196786 Boakes, Alfred
196787 Butters, Charles G
196788 Burton, Richard R
196789 –
196790 –
196791 Cannon, William
196792 –
196793 –
196794 Cox, Thomas H.
196795 Dando, Thomas J
196796 –
196797 Dando, David T
196798 Edwards, George
196799 Edmonds, James
196800 –
196801 Franklin, Francis C.G
196802 Free, Bertram

Hope that is of interest.

Cheers,
Peter

[OwenMartin]

Hi Peter, 

thanks for the information I shall look into it 

Owen

[OwenMartin]

And thank you to you all 

Owen