Royal Engineers 2nd Battalion

[Gail]

I am researching a relative who in 1914 onboard City Of Chester from Southampton to Le Havre, to Ypres then on October 1915 the war diaries end back in France ending in a place called Seux,

 

What happened to them after this and where did they go?

 

I can't seem to put things together

 

Thanks

[PRC]

National Archive have the following Catalogue entries for the 2nd Battalion R.E.

January 1916 - September 1916. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/43aa4563d46a45d9a1e4c9eca5c6d78b

October 1916 - February 1917: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/5a2a556d1bd247718a93da55d81d1204

Couldn't see anything that covers from October 1915 to December 1915 - perhaps the opening entry in the 1916 diary will explain it.

Cheers,
Peter

[Gail]

I have the diaries from Dec 1914 to October 1915

 

The diaries end in france in 1915 and the 1916 diaries don't start like you said until January 1916

Do you think the royal engineers records from their base  or head quaters will have details of his movement 

[Terry_Reeves]

Gail

I think we need a bit more clarification. The links posted by PRC refer to the RE Special Brigade, but they did not exist in 1914. 2nd Battalion Special Brigade were only formed in 1916 and did not move as a unit in any event. Have you any original documents?

TR

 

[Gail]

What documents do you need 

[Terry_Reeves]

1 hour ago, Gail said:

What documents do you need 

Your original source of information would help please.

TR

 

 

 

 

[Gail]

[PRC]

Hi @Gail

I may be missing something but no obvious reference anywhere on the three documents to anyone being a member of the Royal Engineers.

Who on the three documents are you actually interested in?

Cheers,
Peter

[Gail]

[PRC]

So you are interested in someone called Jesse FLOWERS.

The first image you've posted from the 1911 Census of England & Wales shows a Private Jesse FLOWER, (or even FLOWAR, given the letter formation by comparison to similar combinations of lower case letters in the same handwriting).

He is a Private in the 3rd Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment, aged 21, born Paulton, Somerset, and then in Barracks at Horfield, Bristol.

That would appear to tie in with the third image you’ve posted - the 1901 Census of England where there is a 12 year old Jesse FLOWER, born Paulton, Somerset, who was recorded living at New Town, Paulton. This was the household of his widowed grandmother Jemima FLOWER, (aged 60 and born Paulton). Jemima also has an unmarried son, Alfred F., living with her, aged 22 and a Coal Miner, born Paulton. That address fell within the Clutton Civil Registration District for the recording of Births, Marriages and Deaths.

Struggled to find a match on the 1891 Census of England & Wales, but there is a birth of an Elijah Jesse FLOWER which was registered with the civil authorities in the Clutton District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1888. The GRO website does not display a mothers’ maiden name, so likely to be FLOWER. There is no match for any birth registered in the Clutton District for anyone with the surname FLOWERS in the period 1887 – 1891. There is no candidate for Elijah in subsequent censuses, nor is there a match in the civil death records for England & Wales, so a strong probability that ELIJAH JESSE FLOWER and JESSE FLOWER are one and the same.

Like most County Regiments the Gloucestershire Regiment had two full time Battalions, the 1st and the 2nd. The 3rd were Special Reservists – recruits who after a few months training returned to civilian life, but could be called up in the event of war or civil emergency. They were supposed to have regular training and attend camps, but compliance with this varied widely. It would seem likely that the census caught Jesse Flower during his initial period of training. Of course for some the Special Reserve was a taster for switching to full time soldiering. A Special Reservist normally signed up for no more than 6 years. The normal Regular Army full time enlistment was either 12 years or 21 years. The 12 enlistment was split between a period in the “Colours”, (i.e. in uniform, in barracks, subject to military discipline 24/7 and receiving full pay and board) and a period in the Reserves, (in civilian life, subject to military discipline only while trainining, and receiving half pay).

The only likely match in the MiC record does indeed show a Jesse FLOWERS. He was Private 9469 in the Gloucestershire Regiment, subsequently Corporal. He first landed in France on the 21st December 1914. He would later serve with the Royal Engineers, service number 91872. In the post-war period he would be transferred to the temporary Army Reserve Class Z and released back into civilian life. His original term of enlistment must have expired – if he was a Regular with the balance of his 12 years to serve he would have been transferred to Army Reserve B.

(Image courtesy of Ancestry)

The spelling of the surname as FLOWERS is also how it appears on the related service medal rolls according to the indexes on Ancestry.

Paul Nixon’s Army Service number site shows that the Regular Army Battalions of the Gloucestershire Regiment would have issued regimental service number 9469 between the 24th January 1910, (9259) and the 21st April 1911, (9501), but that the Special Reservists ran their own numbering system. https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/03/gloucestershire-regiment-1st-and-2nd.html

So it’s not clear – the 2nd Battalion were in China at the start of the war and didn’t get back to the UK until early November 1914. Jesse could have been Regular Army by then and returned with them, or he could have been one of the Special Reservists used to bring them up to war time strength in the UK. They landed at Le Havre on the 18th December 1914. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/gloucestershire-regiment/

So the arrival of Private Jesse Flowers in France on the 21st December 1914 may just be a co-incidence and he was part of a replacement draft, or it could be the date the 2nd Battalion were taken onto the strength of the British Expeditionary Force.

No way of knowing for sure at this stage whether he actually served as FLOWER or FLOWERS – he may simply have not been bothered to return his medals for amendment, and there don’t appear to be surviving service records.

Apologies but I’m still not seeing anything on the second image, the pages from the Medical Admissions Register, that ties in with Jesse FLOWER or FLOWERS, the Gloucestershire Regiment or the Royal Engineers, or service numbers 9469 or 91872.

Perhaps @Terry_Reeves can provide a steer as to when the Royal Engineers might have issued service number 91872.

Hope some of that helps,
Peter

[Terry_Reeves]

91872 was issued October / November 1915.

TR

[Gail]

wow thank you both so much. 

 

8 years now been trying to find this info. We do have his birth certificate and he died in 1969 and was buried in a paupers grave near Uxbridge

 

We also seem to think he went into Breakspear House residential home in the 1950's but that has also been closed down and he listed himself as retired military

 

His name changes from Jesse Flowers to Jesse Flower to elijah Jesse Flower etc. He was born out of wedlock and bought up by his grandma Jemina and yes 1888 was his birth year

 

Jesse was my grandad's eldest brother one of 11 and he never met him (30 years gap) and we promised we would find him and was hoping 1921 census may show the inbetween years. 

 

i cannot thank you enough for this. 

 

 

 

[PRC]

Had a quick check of the casualty lists available online but no likely match for Flower\Flowers who was service numbers 9469 or 91872. However bear in mind the automated indexing is usually woeful, so there could be something there to find. As the war went on the entries in such lists often included a village \ town \ city relevant to the next of kin – so finding an entry that refers to Paulton would be a step forward.

Going back to the 1911 Census of England & Wales and looking at the other 3rd Battalion men listed on the schedule in the lines adjacent to Jesse:-

Private Francis Llewellyn Elliott, aged 20, born Leomhall, Gloucestershire.

There is a MiC and Service Medal Rolls for a Corporal 9461 Francis L. Elliott, 1st Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment, who first landed in France on the 13th August 1914. The remarks column is noted he died 7th February 1917. I suspect Corporal 9461 Francis Llewellyn (Frank) ELLIOT, may have died post discharge and only recently been accepted amongst the war dead. He has no entry in Soldiers Died in the Great War, an HMSO publication from the 1920’s. His webpage on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website, (CWGC), shows him listed in the United Kingdom Book of Remembrance. That is usually a placeholder until the correct place of commemoration can be identified \ agreed. Going back to the MiC, his mother applied for her sons 1914 Star in November 1918. Her address then was 41 Acacia Road, Sydenham. There are no obvious surviving service records.

Private Timothy French, aged 18, born Bermondsey, London.

There is a MiC, Service Medal Rolls and surviving Pension Records for a Private 9468 Timothy French 1st Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment, who first landed in France on the 13th August 1914. The remarks column is noted he was Discharged. This was an honourable discharge as he was also entitled to wear the Silver War Badge. The index on FMP for his Pension Records links him to Bermondsey.

Private Alfred Capel, aged 17, born Bristol, Gloucestershire.

No likely MiC match and I could not find how the name was indexed on either Genes Reunited or familysearch. No surviving records in the pre-war discharge series WO97.

Private Allan Tuffley, aged 20, born Tetbury, Gloucestershire.

No likely MiC match. No surviving records in the pre-war discharge series WO97. Lives of the First World War have linked him to a man who died in 1916 serving with the 15th Hussars and who came from Gloucestershire, but I’m not convinced. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/4507828
However there is no prior match for a Tetbury born Allan Tuffley in the Census record.

Private George William Howley, aged 17, born Chipping Camden, Gloucestershire.

No MIC for him serving with the Gloucestershire Regiment, but there is a MiC for a Private 7902 George William Howley, Scots Guards. FMP have indexed service records for that soldier as born circa 1894 and with a connection to Chipping Camden.

_______________

Expanding the search to look at the other 3rd Battalion men on the same page of the 1911 Census may turn up more examples of individuals with surviving service records, which in turn may flesh out what was going on. It may be possible the Gloucestershire Regiment mixed new recruits in basic training, with both those who had signed up for a period in the Colours and those who had signed up as Special Reservists both being posted to the 3rd Battalion at the Regimental Depot.

As to his Royal Engineers number 91872, a look at MiCs with nearby service numbers brings up:-

91867 Ernest Bracey ex 11587 Gloucestershire Regiment
91868 Abraham Nicholls ex 20412 Gloucestershire Regiment
91869 John Noble ex 16378 Gloucestershire Regiment
91870 William Lewis ex 19693 Gloucestershire Regiment
91871 George A Dallimore ex 19259 Gloucestershire Regiment.
91873 Arthur Beard ex 7138 1st Battalion Gloucestershire Regiment.(Surviving service records).
91874 William Woodward ex Kings Royal Rifle Corps
91875 John Gillott ex Kings Royal Rifle Corps

A quick look at the CWGC database brought up:-

91855 Serjeant Andrew Haig died in the UK on the 30th October 1918, serving with the Tunnelling Depot Company.
91859 Serjeant John Fowler died in the UK on the 5th May 1919, aged 41, serving with the 161st Company.
91861 Lance Corporal James S Hamilton died in France on the 29th June 1916, aged 39, serving with the 161st Tunnelling Company.
91867 Lance Corporal Ernest Bracey died in France on the 19th May 1916, aged 31, serving with the 161st Tunnelling Company.
91894 Sapper Samuel Dibble died in the UK on the 8th July 1918, aged 26, serving with the Tunnelling Company Depot.

To be honest I’ve never come across the 161st Tunnelling Company before – it’s not one listed on the Long, Long Trail webpage about the Tunnelling Companies of the Royal Engineers. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-corps-of-royal-engineers-in-the-first-world-war/tunnelling-companies-of-the-royal-engineers-underground-warfare/

However something to note on that webpage in the section on the 173rd Tunnelling Company but with wider implications for your query.

“Personnel were converted into infantry – called No 2 RE Battalion – for emergency purposes on 25th March 1918, along with other RE troops from XIX Corps.”

Lots for you to follow through I’m afraid, but hopefully will flesh out a bit more of the likely army career of Jesse Flowers.

Cheers,
Peter

[Terry_Reeves]

Agree with Peter with regard to 173 Tunnelling Company. 
 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/6f7059ce2ad14bec9b139ce89cb7f01f

TR

 

 

 

[Gail]

14 hours ago, PRC said:

Had a quick check of the casualty lists available online but no likely match for Flower\Flowers who was service numbers 9469 or 91872. However bear in mind the automated indexing is usually woeful, so there could be something there to find. As the war went on the entries in such lists often included a village \ town \ city relevant to the next of kin – so finding an entry that refers to Paulton would be a step forward.

Going back to the 1911 Census of England & Wales and looking at the other 3rd Battalion men listed on the schedule in the lines adjacent to Jesse:-

Private Francis Llewellyn Elliott, aged 20, born Leomhall, Gloucestershire.

There is a MiC and Service Medal Rolls for a Corporal 9461 Francis L. Elliott, 1st Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment, who first landed in France on the 13th August 1914. The remarks column is noted he died 7th February 1917. I suspect Corporal 9461 Francis Llewellyn (Frank) ELLIOT, may have died post discharge and only recently been accepted amongst the war dead. He has no entry in Soldiers Died in the Great War, an HMSO publication from the 1920’s. His webpage on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website, (CWGC), shows him listed in the United Kingdom Book of Remembrance. That is usually a placeholder until the correct place of commemoration can be identified \ agreed. Going back to the MiC, his mother applied for her sons 1914 Star in November 1918. Her address then was 41 Acacia Road, Sydenham. There are no obvious surviving service records.

Private Timothy French, aged 18, born Bermondsey, London.

There is a MiC, Service Medal Rolls and surviving Pension Records for a Private 9468 Timothy French 1st Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment, who first landed in France on the 13th August 1914. The remarks column is noted he was Discharged. This was an honourable discharge as he was also entitled to wear the Silver War Badge. The index on FMP for his Pension Records links him to Bermondsey.

Private Alfred Capel, aged 17, born Bristol, Gloucestershire.

No likely MiC match and I could not find how the name was indexed on either Genes Reunited or familysearch. No surviving records in the pre-war discharge series WO97.

Private Allan Tuffley, aged 20, born Tetbury, Gloucestershire.

No likely MiC match. No surviving records in the pre-war discharge series WO97. Lives of the First World War have linked him to a man who died in 1916 serving with the 15th Hussars and who came from Gloucestershire, but I’m not convinced. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/4507828
However there is no prior match for a Tetbury born Allan Tuffley in the Census record.

Private George William Howley, aged 17, born Chipping Camden, Gloucestershire.

No MIC for him serving with the Gloucestershire Regiment, but there is a MiC for a Private 7902 George William Howley, Scots Guards. FMP have indexed service records for that soldier as born circa 1894 and with a connection to Chipping Camden.

_______________

Expanding the search to look at the other 3rd Battalion men on the same page of the 1911 Census may turn up more examples of individuals with surviving service records, which in turn may flesh out what was going on. It may be possible the Gloucestershire Regiment mixed new recruits in basic training, with both those who had signed up for a period in the Colours and those who had signed up as Special Reservists both being posted to the 3rd Battalion at the Regimental Depot.

As to his Royal Engineers number 91872, a look at MiCs with nearby service numbers brings up:-

91867 Ernest Bracey ex 11587 Gloucestershire Regiment
91868 Abraham Nicholls ex 20412 Gloucestershire Regiment
91869 John Noble ex 16378 Gloucestershire Regiment
91870 William Lewis ex 19693 Gloucestershire Regiment
91871 George A Dallimore ex 19259 Gloucestershire Regiment.
91873 Arthur Beard ex 7138 1st Battalion Gloucestershire Regiment.(Surviving service records).
91874 William Woodward ex Kings Royal Rifle Corps
91875 John Gillott ex Kings Royal Rifle Corps

A quick look at the CWGC database brought up:-

91855 Serjeant Andrew Haig died in the UK on the 30th October 1918, serving with the Tunnelling Depot Company.
91859 Serjeant John Fowler died in the UK on the 5th May 1919, aged 41, serving with the 161st Company.
91861 Lance Corporal James S Hamilton died in France on the 29th June 1916, aged 39, serving with the 161st Tunnelling Company.
91867 Lance Corporal Ernest Bracey died in France on the 19th May 1916, aged 31, serving with the 161st Tunnelling Company.
91894 Sapper Samuel Dibble died in the UK on the 8th July 1918, aged 26, serving with the Tunnelling Company Depot.

To be honest I’ve never come across the 161st Tunnelling Company before – it’s not one listed on the Long, Long Trail webpage about the Tunnelling Companies of the Royal Engineers. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-corps-of-royal-engineers-in-the-first-world-war/tunnelling-companies-of-the-royal-engineers-underground-warfare/

However something to note on that webpage in the section on the 173rd Tunnelling Company but with wider implications for your query.

“Personnel were converted into infantry – called No 2 RE Battalion – for emergency purposes on 25th March 1918, along with other RE troops from XIX Corps.”

Lots for you to follow through I’m afraid, but hopefully will flesh out a bit more of the likely army career of Jesse Flowers.

Cheers,
Peter

I can not thank enough for all of this. Your researching skills are second to none. Shame you don't live locally would love to talk to you about your knowledge. 

 

I just hope we have the right resting place due to the number of different names 

 

Again thank you. 😊 

[Gail]

[Michelle Young]

See also