Mystery corps uniform amongst RGA 1909 Bermuda

[FROGSMILE]

26 minutes ago, aodhdubh said:

I might add that my own great-great-grandfather, who arrived in Bermuda in the 46th (South Devonshire) Regiment of Foot in 1876, purchased his discharge to marry in Bermuda and end his days as a Presbyterian church sexton, so I expect he was an exception.

Sounds like he was of the right Protestant stock to be accepted in the local polite society.  There was a lot of prejudice against the largely working class British soldiers at that time and as you’ve pointed out the islanders were mostly of a certain type who lived in an echo chamber of social attitudes that would have made most rough and ready soldiers feel very uncomfortable and unwelcome.

[aodhdubh]

30 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I understand, you have painted a very eloquent picture.

Here's a photo of the Garrison Recreation Ground at St. George's Garrison, circa 1870, seen from Old Military Road with the Station Hospital visible in the background on the right. The knoll on the left is today occupied by the Royal Artillery Association branch.

[aodhdubh]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Sounds like he was of the right Protestant stock to be accepted in the local polite society.  There was a lot of prejudice against the largely working class British soldiers at that time and as you’ve pointed out the islanders were mostly of a certain type who lived in an echo chamber of social attitudes that would have made most rough and ready soldiers feel very uncomfortable and unwelcome.

Yes...it was very "Tommy this, and Tommy that, and toss him out, the brute!" That being said, once the BMA and BVRC were in operation, it doubtless led to a much more filial relationship between Bermudian men and their families and the average soldiers, whom they trained and sported with on a frequent basis.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, aodhdubh said:

Here's a photo of the Garrison Recreation Ground at St. George's Garrison, circa 1870, seen from Old Military Road with the Station Hospital visible in the background on the right. The knoll on the left is today occupied by the Royal Artillery Association branch.

That’s a cracking photo.  The cuffs and white helmets tell us that they appear to be Royal Marines Light Infantry and Royal Marines Artillery on parade. Alternatively they might be Foot Guards.  The cuffs are of slashed flap type.

Edited 25 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, aodhdubh said:

Yes...it was very "Tommy this, and Tommy that, and toss him out, the brute!" That being said, once the BMA and BVRC were in operation, it doubtless led to a much more filial relationship between Bermudian men and their families and the average soldiers, whom they trained and sported with on a frequent basis.

Yes, it did make me think of Kipling.  I imagine that the culture changed a great deal with the BMA and BVRC but there are two schools of thought as to the effectiveness of indigenous troops.  One is that they will fight fiercely for hearth and home, and the other is that they’ll be too distracted by the safety of their families and personal valuables to operate cohesively and with single mindedness.

Edited 25 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[aodhdubh]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

That’s a cracking photo.  The cuffs and white helmets tell us that they appear to be Royal Marines Light Infantry and Royal Garrison Artillery on parade. 

RMLI would be very interesting. They were present in Bermuda both on ships and as part of the shore establishment. In theory, they added an extra battalion to Bermuda's army garrison if all the detachments were assembled together (as in the below photo on Moresby Plain at the Royal Naval Dockyard). They were, however, stationed on Ireland Island at the opposite end of the archipelago, so must have been visiting St. George's.

[aodhdubh]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes it did make me think of Kipling.  I imagine that the culture changed a great deal with the BMA and BVRC but there are two schools of thought as to the effectiveness of indigenous troops.  One is that they will fight fiercely for hearth and home, and the other is that they’ll be too distracted by the safety of their families and personal valuables to operate cohesively and with single mindedness.

Bermuda is so tiny (21 square miles, counting literally every rock) that you cannot defend one without defending the other, so probably would not have been an issue. The BVRC raised a contingent for the Western Front in December, 1914, which trained through the winter and Spring and was in the trenches the following July. Another followed in 1916, and the BMA sent two also. They were found to be fitter, smarter, and more resourceful and reliable than what the average UK officer unused to Bermudians expected.

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, aodhdubh said:

RMLI would be very interesting. They were present in Bermuda both on ships and as part of the shore establishment. In theory, they added an extra battalion to Bermuda's army garrison if all the detachments were assembled together (as in the below photo on Moresby Plain at the Royal Naval Dockyard). They were, however, stationed on Ireland Island at the opposite end of the archipelago, so must have been visiting St. George's.

 

I think a RMLI gathering seems the most likely scenario, because the alternative of Foot Guards is much rarer and less likely, as it wasn’t often that they served overseas in peacetime during that period.

Edited 25 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, aodhdubh said:

Bermuda is so tiny (21 square miles, counting literally every rock) that you cannot defend one without defending the other, so probably would not have been an issue. The BVRC raised a contingent for the Western Front in December, 1914, which trained through the winter and Spring and was in the trenches the following July. Another followed in 1916, and the BMA sent two also. They were found to be fitter, smarter, and more resourceful and reliable than what the average UK officer unused to Bermudians expected.

That doesn’t surprise me as their narrow social background would have made them all more educated, cohesive, patriotic and committed.  This was similar to many of the war-raised service battalions provided by the cities and municipalities of Britain.  A reflection of the British class system.

Edited 25 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[aodhdubh]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

That doesn’t surprise me as their narrow social background would have made them all more educated, cohesive, patriotic and committed.  This was similar to many of the war-raised service battalions provided by the cities and municipalities of Britain.  A reflection of the British class system.

That's the consensus. The Bermudian contingent of the RGA (which included my grandfather's uncle, son of the 46th Foot soldier) worked in dumps supplying ammunition, and drastically increased efficiency as, in addition to other benefits they brought, when they arrived they found standard practice loading heavy ammunition onto vehicles was to place it on a trolley and push it up a plank, but the Bermudian gunners just picked them up and placed them on the trucks. The health and nutrition of the average urban working class youth in the British Isles meant many were of small stature and poor fitness. Apparently, the Germans called Scottish soldiers "poisoned dwarves"...or perhaps just the Weegers.

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, aodhdubh said:

That's the consensus. The Bermudian contingent of the RGA (which included my grandfather's uncle, son of the 46th Foot soldier) worked in dumps supplying ammunition, and drastically increased efficiency as, in addition to other benefits they brought, when they arrived they found standard practice loading heavy ammunition onto vehicles was to place it on a trolley and push it up a plank, but the Bermudian gunners just picked them up and placed them on the trucks. The health and nutrition of the average urban working class youth in the British Isles meant many were of small stature and poor fitness. Apparently, the Germans called Scottish soldiers "poisoned dwarves"...or perhaps just the Weegers.

Yes I think you’ve summarised the situation very well.  There had been an official inquiry after the 2nd Anglo/Boer War into the large numbers of puny and underdeveloped working class men found physically unfit/unsuitable for the armed forces.  As per usual after so many similar inquiries little seems to have been done to bring about improvements and it’s my belief that this must have contributed to the fact that only 25% of the British and Irish men of military age served in WW1.  It’s always seemed a dreadful irony that the men with good genes and stable social backgrounds who might have ensured a more healthy progeny in the future were those disproportionately slaughtered on the fields of France and Flanders.

Edited 25 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[aodhdubh]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think a RMLI gathering seems the most likely scenario as the alternative of Foot Guards is much rarer and less likely as it wasn’t often that they served overseas in peacetime during that period.

 

 

 

 

 

The Guards were not normally sent abroad except on campaign, never on colonial garrison duty. ...except, funnily enough, on one occasion when the 2nd Battalion The Grenadier Guards were naughty and sent on colonial garrison duty. You can guess which colony. They were in Bermuda from 1890 to 1891. This is snipped from The Graphic. 1st of November, 1890.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, aodhdubh said:

The Guards were not normally sent abroad except on campaign, never on colonial garrison duty. ...except, funnily enough, on one occasion when the 2nd Battalion The Grenadier Guards were naughty and sent on colonial garrison duty. You can guess which colony. They were in Bermuda from 1890 to 1891. This is snipped from The Graphic. 1st of November, 1890.

 

 

Yes I was aware of those details and it was why I made the comment that they were the less likely option.  They were sent as a supposed punishment posting, apparently after refusing to parade at a barracks in London, if I recall correctly.  There’s a detailed thread about it in the forum.  At a later stage, I think between the wars, a Guards battalion also completed a tour of garrison duty in Egypt, although I seem to recall it was relatively short.

Edited 25 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[aodhdubh]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

...The cuffs and white helmets tell us that they appear to be Royal Marines Light Infantry and Royal Marines Artillery on parade....

 

Now that I think about it, I read somewhere that there was a unique pattern of white helmet for the army only authorised for two garrisons...it was either Bermuda and Malta, or Bermuda and Gibraltar...I'd need to look it up again.

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, aodhdubh said:

Now that I think about it, I read somewhere that there was a unique pattern of white helmet for the army only authorised for two garrisons...it was either Bermuda and Malta, or Bermuda and Gibraltar...I'd need to look it up again.

Yes that’s correct.  It was unique in that it was not fitted with a pagri/puggaree.

NB.  There was also a trial pattern of white helmet (with a more flared brim) that was a putative attempt to produce a single helmet for use both at home (in place of the blue helmet) and overseas (in place of the then colonial helmet).

Edited 25 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[aodhdubh]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I was aware of those details and it was why I made the comment that they were the less likely option.  They were sent as a supposed punishment posting, apparently after refusing to parade at a barracks in London, if I recall correctly.  There’s a detailed thread about it in the forum.  At a later stage, I think between the wars, a Guards battalion also completed a tour of garrison duty in Egypt, although I think it was relatively short.

By all accounts, they enjoyed their time in Bermuda. The islanders were so thrilled to have a guards regiment they treated them especially kindly.

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes that’s correct.  It was unique in that it was not fitted with a pagri/puggaree.

I saw it as a footnote once,,,i remember the book, but it's buried in a closet.

[aodhdubh]

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I was aware of those details and it was why I made the comment that they were the less likely option.  They were sent as a supposed punishment posting, apparently after refusing to parade at a barracks in London, if I recall correctly.  There’s a detailed thread about it in the forum.  At a later stage, I think between the wars, a Guards battalion also completed a tour of garrison duty in Egypt, although I think it was relatively short.

I think I recall the Prince of Wales was in Bermuda at the time, also, assigned to the North America and West Indies Station of the Royal Navy.

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, aodhdubh said:

By all accounts, they enjoyed their time in Bermuda. The islanders were so thrilled to have a guards regiment they treated them especially kindly.

They would have been a very unusual battalion to what they had seen before, with statistically larger numbers of young short-service men, due to their different terms of engagement.

Edited 25 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[aodhdubh]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

They would have been a very different battalion to what they had seen before, with statistically larger numbers of young short-service men, due to their different terms with of engagement.

I suspect from the Bermudian perspective that it was cause for snobbery that they rated a Guards regiment.

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, aodhdubh said:

I suspect from the Bermudian perspective that it was cause for snobbery that they rated a Guards regiment.

Very likely.

[aodhdubh]

20 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Very likely.

I expect not so much some of the officers already in the garrison. My assumption is a Guards officer is senior to a Royal Artillery or line officer of the same rank, regardless of date of commission? The senior Lieutenant-Colonel in Bermuda was usually second in command of the garrison, and in absence of the Governor and C-in-C acted in those roles. I'm looking at the Royal Gazette's 12th of August, 1890, account of the battalions arrival, and note on the left side of the page an advisement about the senior and second senior most officer in the garrison (after the C-in-C). I mentioned that the latest reference I'd seen to a Barrack Sergeant in Bermuda was in the 1870s, but this page also has an entry on the Coroner's inquest and funeral of a Barracks Sergeant, and ex-Grenadier Guard who presumably arrived with the battalion.

Edited 25 October , 2021 by aodhdubh

[aodhdubh]

That last is not very clear...I'll snip out the items of interest.

 

 

 

Edited 25 October , 2021 by aodhdubh
correct selection

[FROGSMILE]

45 minutes ago, aodhdubh said:

I expect not so much some of the officers already in the garrison. My assumption is a Guards officer is senior to a Royal Artillery or line officer of the same rank, regardless of date of commission? The senior Lieutenant-Colonel in Bermuda was usually second in command of the garrison, and in absence of the Governor and C-in-C acted in those roles. I'm looking at the Royal Gazette's 12th of August, 1890, account of the battalions arrival, and note on the left side of the page an advisement about the senior and second senior most officer in the garrison (after the C-in-C). I mentioned that the latest reference I'd seen to a Barrack Sergeant in Bermuda was in the 1870s, but this page also has an entry on the Coroner's inquest and funeral of a Barracks Sergeant, and ex-Grenadier Guard who presumably arrived with the battalion.

Yes, the Guards would be senior through their then discrete double-rank system, whereby the Guards officers each had a regimental rank and an Army rank, the latter being one above (in effect a permanent brevet and in part intended to ensure a Guards officer was not disadvantaged on campaign through his service almost exclusively at home).  It’s interesting that you found a Barracks Sergeant, as that suggests they were established, as I had first thought.  I think it’s just a coincidence that he was a Grenadier Guard.  He was from the 1st Battalion and, just as with the MPS, WO and NCO appointments on the garrison staff were all transferees.

Edited 25 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[aodhdubh]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes the Guards would be senior through their then discrete double-rank system, whereby the Guards officers each had a regimental rank and an Army rank, the latter being one above.  It’s interesting that you found a Barracks Sergeant as that suggests they were established as I had first thought.  I think it’s just a coincidence that he was a Grenadier Guard.  He was from the 1st Battalion and just as with the MPS appointments on the garrison staff were trainees.

Ah...I did not read that closely enough to note he belonged to a different battalion. I wonder how long he was there.

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, aodhdubh said:

Ah...I did not read that closely enough to note he belonged to a different battalion. I wonder how long he was there.

You would need to trace his name, but as you can see he had brought his wife and 6 children with him (some may have been born there) and that suggests a posting of some years length.

NB.  It was interesting to see some famous names among the Guards officers, including Wellesley (connected with the Duke of Wellington) and Fitzroy-Somerset (connected with Lord Raglan).  Also Messrs Bagot and Loyd. 

Edited 25 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE