Trench Maps

[Histoire]

Hello

[I may be in the wrong forum here - please move as needed. Thanks.]

Does anyone know of a good source of large scale maps e.g. 1:5000?

I'm looking for a specific place called 'Canada Corner'. McMaster has it in the index however it's not at the reference listed, though a referenced nearby location (Hyde Park Corner) is. How would they have indexed it if not on a map? Could this be down to map resolution perhaps..?

Baffled - Any ideas!!!?

Thanks.

 

Screenshots:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jonbem]

it is on this one, possibly renamed?

[Messines Region, Wytschaete Ridge] | Digital Archive @ McMaster University Library

[TEW]

Mcmaster may have indexed it based on a known location. Not unusual to get a location hit for a trench while the map doesn't actually show the name.

1:5000 is actually a small scale map, best place to find extra maps are in division, brigade and battalion diaries via Ancestry or TNA.

TEW

[jay dubaya]

Chasseaud’s ‘Rats Alley’ gives Canada Corner at Kemmel sheet 28SW1 M.17.45.55

[WhiteStarLine]

8 hours ago, Histoire said:

 looking for a specific place called 'Canada Corner'.

@Histoire, open tmapper.com and put in Canada Corner.  The first hit on the search engine takes you there:

 

[Histoire]

Thanks for that. It's broadly at the reference stated by McMaster.

Any idea what scale these maps are at? They seem to have some good detail.

15 hours ago, TEW said:

Mcmaster may have indexed it based on a known location. Not unusual to get a location hit for a trench while the map doesn't actually show the name.

1:5000 is actually a small scale map, best place to find extra maps are in division, brigade and battalion diaries via Ancestry or TNA.

TEW

Thanks, but how does something become a 'known location' if there is no map evidence to support it?

I will check out the diaries for other maps. I found a reference to Canada Corner in a Manchester diary a while back.

 

[TEW]

I thought (perhaps incorrectly) that if a named place is shown on one map it is then indexed as being on that sheet despite the fact that most of the sheets you view don't show the named location. 

Clearly this doesn't apply to Canada Corner as the name is not on any if their online collection.

Perhaps they have other maps (not online) or another source?

TEW

[WhiteStarLine]

28 minutes ago, Histoire said:

Thanks, but how does something become a 'known location' if there is no map evidence to support it?

That's a good question with a simple answer.  @TEW is one of the forum's map experts and what he means is that you can find multiple maps of different scales and different production dates for the same location.  The name you are expecting might be on some and not appear on others.  This might be because a name given to the farm was given by one Division and adopted from that date.  Earlier maps might show a different name.  Later, the name might change again.  No different from many countries where names change over time for many varied reasons.

tMapper uses maps from the National Library of Scotland.  Nine out of 10 maps call the feature Hyde Park Corner.  The most recent on (September 1918) calls it Canada Corner.  The second last one calls it Hyde Park Corner but marks Canada Camp at the same location.  So around this time, either it was renamed or Canada Corner is actually the T junction just up the road from Hyde Park Corner and the cartographer was wrong.

[jay dubaya]

Chasseaud’s ‘Rats Alley’ gives Hyde Park Corner [near Canada Corner] as 28.M.17.c.6.4. 
They’re very close to each other but Canada Corner and Hyde Park Corner are not the same place. The references may suggest opposing sides of the road given that they’re about 75 yards apart.

[Histoire]

1 hour ago, WhiteStarLine said:

That's a good question with a simple answer.  @TEW is one of the forum's map experts and what he means is that you can find multiple maps of different scales and different production dates for the same location.  The name you are expecting might be on some and not appear on others.  This might be because a name given to the farm was given by one Division and adopted from that date.  Earlier maps might show a different name.  Later, the name might change again.  No different from many countries where names change over time for many varied reasons.

tMapper uses maps from the National Library of Scotland.  Nine out of 10 maps call the feature Hyde Park Corner.  The most recent on (September 1918) calls it Canada Corner.  The second last one calls it Hyde Park Corner but marks Canada Camp at the same location.  So around this time, either it was renamed or Canada Corner is actually the T junction just up the road from Hyde Park Corner and the cartographer was wrong.

That make sense. Thanks again

Just now, Histoire said:

That make sense. Thanks again

Thanks, most useful

1 hour ago, TEW said:

I thought (perhaps incorrectly) that if a named place is shown on one map it is then indexed as being on that sheet despite the fact that most of the sheets you view don't show the named location. 

Clearly this doesn't apply to Canada Corner as the name is not on any if their online collection.

Perhaps they have other maps (not online) or another source?

TEW

 

[TEW]

WhiteStarLine refers to me as a map expert. Well, I like an accolade but I'd defer to WhiteStarLine's input when maps are concerned.

I said this earlier:

Clearly this doesn't apply to Canada Corner as the name is not on any if their online collection.

Jonbem posted an extract of a Mcmaster map depicting Canada Corner, this map is probably the source for their search result.

Quite often I've searched Mcmaster for a trench named in a diary and it gives a sheet and reference for the trench but can't find it marked on any map. The reference is certainly in the right area but only a small percentage of the trenches have printed names.

Clearly Mcmaster have more data. I also wonder how they created their index (search). Did they go over every square of every map? I suspect you could find a trench or printed name for something on one map and not get a hit on it via the search - if you had the time and inclination to do so.

Ancestry gives eleven diary search hits for "Canada Corner" as a keyword. Dates range from Sept 1916 - April 1918.

"Hyde Park Corner" gets twelve hits but seem to be another Hyde Park Corner in 28.U.19 which is marked on a 1918 1:40,000 map.

TEW

[jonbem]

20 minutes ago, TEW said:

I also wonder how they created their index (search).

[Bob Davies]

On 23/10/2021 at 16:02, Histoire said:

I'm looking for a specific place called 'Canada Corner'. McMaster has it in the index however it's not at the reference listed,

There is this map of Locre on Mc Master. Canada corner is in square 17. Regards, Bob. http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A71310

[Bob Davies]

On 23/10/2021 at 16:02, Histoire said:

I'm looking for a specific place called 'Canada Corner'. McMaster has it in the index however it's not at the reference listed

Also on this map showing  Hyde Park Corner and a Canada Camp. Regards, Bob. http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A70094