James Moss 5819348

[Ashley Sargent]

Hi all,

James moss 5819348 is listed on the war memorial in Haughley Suffolk. He died at home in November 1920. However I'm struggling to find any information on how he died..can somebody point me in the right direction? Or does anybody have any info on this chap?

[ss002d6252]

The pension record says 'disease'

https://www.fold3.com/image/645709546?terms=5819348

Craig

[david murdoch]

He has a CWGC entry which shows he was 31 when he died. Son of Mrs. J. Moss, of 30, Lower Violet Hill, Stowmarket. which suggests he was not married. He also has a register of soldiers effects. On Find My Past there is an entry for him under railwaymen died in the great war, showing he was an employee of Great Eastern Railways. This has a little bio on him 

"Age 31, the son of Mrs J Moss of 30 Lower Violet Hill, Stowmarket. Joined the GER on 13 May 1907, and enlisted with the 2nd Battalion Suffolk Regiment in November 1914. He died while on active service. Despite not being a casualty of the Great War his death was recorded by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission"

Casualty Details | CWGC

This implies he was still in service when he died, but does not give any hint at cause of death.  Also as he enlisted in November 1914 he almost certainly has a medal card/roll but under a different service number  That 7 digit service number looks like a later renumbering, or possibly a re enlistment.

Suffolk Regiment has their medal roll in alphabetical order so all the Mosses are together - possible candidate Pte. James Moss 44505 2nd Suffolk Reg.

[ss002d6252]

15 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

Son of Mrs. J. Moss, of 30, Lower Violet Hill, Stowmarket. which suggests he was not married. H

The surviving pension regards show that a dependant's claim was made by Mary Ann Moss, his step-mother.
 

Quote

This implies he was still in service when he died, but does not give any hint at cause of death.

He'd already been discharged when he died, according to the pension record.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

The effects record isn't as clear cut though.

I think the death cert or service record is going to be needed to confirm.

Craig

[Mark1959]

44505 home town is given as Hanley in a WO casualty list in Nov 1918. Lot of similar numbers show as from Stoke area so probably not right man

Edited 23 October , 2021 by Mark1959

[Matlock1418]

Death Certificate probably easier to obtain [quicker and cheaper] than trying for a possible 5819348 retained service record at the MoD

Name:                           Age at Death (in years):  

MOSS, JAMES               31  

GRO Reference: 1920  D Quarter in COLCHESTER  Volume 04A  Page 712

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp 

:-) M

[david murdoch]

34 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

The effects record isn't as clear cut though.

I think the death cert or service record is going to be needed to confirm.

Craig

I agree probably need civil death certificate to establish cause of death. As the pension record is actually a dependents claim, does not appear he himself had a pension claim for anything related to war service either due to wounds or ill health due to service. The GER roll of honour is probably the more accurate, and also he qualified for CWGC headstone which hints he was in service but did not die as a direct result of his service. 

Looking up casualty lists the James Moss 44505 Suffolk Regiment shows up wounded under that number in November 1918 and gives "home town" as Hanley so probably someone else.

[Ashley Sargent]

Thanks for all the info on this chap!

[ss002d6252]

Quote

As the pension record is actually a dependents claim, does not appear he himself had a pension claim for anything related to war service either due to wounds or ill health due to service.

He possibly did but many of those ledgers and cards are gone. The one thing we can say is that she didn't make a claim before his death.

The problem with an Article 21 parents claim is that it covers cases of death in service, or within 7 years of discharge.

What we can say though is that is was an Article 21(1)(c) claim which was only paid where the man was unmarried and there was no child allowances in payment (and the man was under 26 when he joined the forces). This was a flat rate amount and not dependent on whether or not the soldier claimed a pension.

Craig

[Matlock1418]

5 hours ago, david murdoch said:

As the pension record is actually a dependents claim, does not appear he himself had a pension claim for anything related to war service either due to wounds or ill health due to service. The GER roll of honour is probably the more accurate, and also he qualified for CWGC headstone which hints he was in service but did not die as a direct result of his service. 

Are you suggesting the GER were more reliable than the Ministry of Pensions?? ;-/

The 5819348 seven digit number certainly suggests a period of post-war service - a MoD held service record seems a possibility but a long-off and quite expensive solution at this stage  https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records [12+ months? @ £30]

4 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

He possibly did but many of those ledgers and cards are gone.

As Craig = We cannot be certain that he didn't make a disability pension claim for himself - the pension record index cards might be lost or details may be elsewhere in a record we have not yet seen (e.g. as above in a SR there may be details on reason for his suggested discharge).

As for CWGC commemoration we have to remember the criteria for eligibility:

5 Criteria for Commemoration

5.1 Commonwealth Armed Forces

We commemorate people who served in the Commonwealth armed forces during the First or Second World War, whose death:

·         occurred during the official war period; and

·         was the result of:

·         wounds inflicted or accident occurring during active service;

·         disease contracted or commencing while on active service; or

·         disease aggravated by active service.

In practice, this means that:

·         serving military personnel are commemorated irrespective of the cause or circumstances of their death; and

·         military personnel who died post-discharge are commemorated if it is established that they meet the above criteria

https://www.cwgc.org/media/0awj5vti/policy-eligibility-criteria-for-commemoration_march21.pdf

= Disease in 1920 would qualify during, and commonly after, service - very common ones perhaps being pulmonary tuberculosis or perhaps influenza at that date [but I/we now start to speculate].

= = As suggested the Death Registration entry/Certificate seems by far the easiest, quickest and cheapest, solution as a next stop and would be a definitive official answer of cause and place of death etc.

[When the GRO reference is supplied (seems likely as above), a more basic PDF version with e-mailed advice and then collect from the GRO site = 4 working days @ £7 or a full certificate = 4 working days plus 2nd Class postage time (so probably up to a couple of weeks depending on where in the UK/world you are applying from!) @ £11]

:-) M

Edited 23 October , 2021 by Matlock1418
link

[George Rayner]

18 hours ago, david murdoch said:

showing he was an employee of Great Eastern Railways.

He had moved up in the world as he had been a labourer on a farm in 1911

[George Rayner]

Here's a little local colour for you for the family! Courtesy of Find My Past newspapers

Norfolk News 10 November 1900

available in other newspapers as well

George

Edited 24 October , 2021 by George Rayner

[Ashley Sargent]

9 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

Here's a little local colour for you for the family! Courtesy of Find My Past newspapers

Norfolk News 10 November 1900

available in other newspapers as well

George

Wow!

 

[PRC]

3 hours ago, George Rayner said:

He had moved up in the world as he had been a labourer on a farm in 1911

According to the Fallen Railway Workers source - either at the National Rail Museum or searchable on the Roll of Honour site - he was employed by the Great Eastern Railway as an Underman (Junior Platelayer) in 1907. So he must have lost his job with them if he was recorded as a Farm Labourer by the time the 1911 Census of England & Wales was taken on the 2nd April.

Which in turn then beggars the question of why he is on the Railwayman Memorial?

Search engine on the Roll of Honour site is probably the easiest way to find it. His entry includes a headshot of him in uniform - I think with a Suffolk cap badge but resolution is quite low. https://www.roll-of-honour.com/cgi-bin/fallenrailwaymenww1.cgi

And to confirm his presence on the Liverpool Street Memorial to the employees of the Great Eastern Railway.

Cheers,
Peter

Edit: - And a very belated welcome to the forum to @Ashley Sargent

Edited 24 October , 2021 by PRC

[George Rayner]

Courtesy of Ancestry is 1911 Census return

His blood mother was Sarah Murton and she died in December 1891. Maryann married James senior in 1893 by the look of things.

George

 

Edited 24 October , 2021 by George Rayner

[ss002d6252]

It does certainly seem odd that he's on the railway list.

I wonder if he went back to them, or if they had a policy to list former employees.

Craig

[PRC]

My understanding is that given the likelihood of long term employment and decent rates of pay, being taken on by the Railway Companies tended to be much sought after. The companies were also very paternalistic, encouraging recruitment amongst families to ensure that they all kept each other in line. The additional downside is that once someone left or was sacked, then they didn't tend to get re-employed.

I did try doing a run through of the names on the Liverpool Street memorial some years back and did start to wonder if some of them could be family rather than direct employees. But here's the dedication on the plaque

Cheers,
Peter

 

[ss002d6252]

33 minutes ago, PRC said:

My understanding is that given the likelihood of long term employment and decent rates of pay, being taken on by the Railway Companies tended to be much sought after. The companies were also very paternalistic, encouraging recruitment amongst families to ensure that they all kept each other in line. The additional downside is that once someone left or was sacked, then they didn't tend to get re-employed.

My thoughts exactly Peter.

I suppose it's something we'll probably never know the full answer to.

Craig

[PRC]

BTW - any reason why this man has not been considered?

Image courtesy of Ancestry

No surviving service records and no Silver War Badge that I could see. During the 1880's Army reforms Cambridgeshire was one the counties that didn't end up with any Regular Army units, and so its militia and volunteer battalions were associated with the Suffolk Regiment. Post 1908 the same relationship was in place for the Territorial Force only Cambridgeshire Regiment. Post-Great War James Moss may have been fit enough to be accepted into a Territorial Force Battalion of the Suffolk Regiment - hence his 7 digit number.

23 hours ago, david murdoch said:

enlisted with the 2nd Battalion Suffolk Regiment in November 1914

Suspect that is an oversimplification - as a Regular Army Battalion he wouldn't have been enlisted directly into it. Added to that the 2nd Battalion had been in France since August 1914. So James Moss the farm labourer \ railway platelayer would have done his training with one of the battalions then stationed in the UK. So while he may have served with the 2nd Battalion at some point, he may well have served with other units both at home and abroad. A useful check would be the Service Medal Roll for the Victory Medal and British War Medal on Ancestry, (I don't have subscription access) to see if 14033 James Moss is ever shown as serving with the 2nd Battalion

In terms of a nearby numbers search to check when 14033 James Moss might have enlisted:-

14034 Joseph Jeffery has no surviving service records but does appear on the Silver War Badge Roll with an enlistment date of the 2nd September 1914.
14038 F. Garland. Single page on FMP showing he was discharged from the Suffolk Regiment 17/10/1914 - KR392 IIIc subquently joined RFA in 1917.
14040 Arthur John Grimwood. Surviving service records, enlisted 2nd September 1914. A Farm Labourer born, resident and enlisted Tuddenham St Mary, Mildenhall, Suffolk. Reporting to the Depot at Bury St Edmunds on the same day, he was posted to the 8th Battalion on the 4th. Discharged medically unfit 21st November 1914 from C Company, 8th Battalion, at Colchester - he had Tuberculosis.
14041 Horace George Green. Surviving service records, enlisted 2nd September 1914. A Labourer, he was born and resident Hessett, Suffolk. Reporting to the Depot at Bury St Edmunds on the same day, he was posted to the 8th Battalion on the 5th.

There some oddments for the other men who had service numbers in the "gaps" and there is a consistent theme, through MiC's, Medical Admission Register entries, and CWGC \ SDGW records that these men went overseas with the 8th Battalion, landing in France on the 25th July 1915, just like 14033 James Moss - the date the 8th Battalion deployed overseas.

Bit of a difference between September 1914 and November 1914, but as the source for the latter has already erred on the side of oversimplication, I'd be inclined to regard it as less than gospel until proved otherwise.

Hope that helps,
Peter

[ss002d6252]

7 minutes ago, PRC said:

BTW - any reason why this man has not been considered?

Image courtesy of Ancestry

No surviving service records and no Silver War Badge that I could see. During the 1880's Army reforms Cambridgeshire was one the counties that didn't end up with any Regular Army units, and so its militia and volunteer battalions were associated with the Suffolk Regiment. Post 1908 the same relationship was in place for the Territorial Force only Cambridgeshire Regiment. Post-Great War James Moss may have been fit enough to be accepted into a Territorial Force Battalion of the Suffolk Regiment - hence his 7 digit number.

Suspect that is an oversimplification - as a Regular Army Battalion he wouldn't have been enlisted directly into it. Added to that the 2nd Battalion had been in France since August 1914. So James Moss the farm labourer \ railway platelayer would have done his training with one of the battalions then stationed in the UK. So while he may have served with the 2nd Battalion at some point, he may well have served with other units both at home and abroad. A useful check would be the Service Medal Roll for the Victory Medal and British War Medal on Ancestry, (I don't have subscription access) to see if 14033 James Moss is ever shown as serving with the 2nd Battalion

In terms of a nearby numbers search to check when 14033 James Moss might have enlisted:-

14034 Joseph Jeffery has no surviving service records but does appear on the Silver War Badge Roll with an enlistment date of the 2nd September 1914.
14038 F. Garland. Single page on FMP showing he was discharged from the Suffolk Regiment 17/10/1914 - KR392 IIIc subquently joined RFA in 1917.
14040 Arthur John Grimwood. Surviving service records, enlisted 2nd September 1914. A Farm Labourer born, resident and enlisted Tuddenham St Mary, Mildenhall, Suffolk. Reporting to the Depot at Bury St Edmunds on the same day, he was posted to the 8th Battalion on the 4th. Discharged medically unfit 21st November 1914 from C Company, 8th Battalion, at Colchester - he had Tuberculosis.
14041 Horace George Green. Surviving service records, enlisted 2nd September 1914. A Labourer, he was born and resident Hessett, Suffolk. Reporting to the Depot at Bury St Edmunds on the same day, he was posted to the 8th Battalion on the 5th.

There some oddments for the other men who had service numbers in the "gaps" and there is a consistent theme, through MiC's, Medical Admission Register entries, and CWGC \ SDGW records that these men went overseas with the 8th Battalion, landing in France on the 25th July 1915, just like 14033 James Moss - the date the 8th Battalion deployed overseas.

Bit of a difference between September 1914 and November 1914, but as the source for the latter has already erred on the side of oversimplication, I'd be inclined to regard it as less than gospel until proved otherwise.

Hope that helps,
Peter

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41629_611411_5558-00164?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=1aba6fd72ba03e77a395d69e772701ec&usePUB=true&_phsrc=AaS449&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=323410

Craig

[PRC]

11 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41629_611411_5558-00164?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=1aba6fd72ba03e77a395d69e772701ec&usePUB=true&_phsrc=AaS449&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=323410

Craig

So not looking hopeful them

However just in case there was anything written on the original grave registration report that might hint at an earlier number, I took a look at his entry on the CWGC website. Both he and the other 1920 death buried in the same churchyard are shown as 2nd Suffolks - a strange co-incidence that gets my spidey senses tingling. Additional this was the unit he was serving with at most recent to his death - so may well have been post-war and as part of the shrinking back of the Regular Army to peacetime size. Could explain a non-appearance of the 2nd Battalion on the Service Medal Roll.

Other possibilities are available!

Image courtesy the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.

Cheers,
Peter