Pat Twomey Posted 21 October , 2021 Share Posted 21 October , 2021 John James O’Neill (39598) of the 66th Training Reserve Battalion born on 20/05/1890 enrolled 21/07/1917. His next of kin is given as Michael O’Neill of 19, Redmond Place, Liverpool. Less than 4 months after enlisting JJ O’Neill was discharged deemed ‘no longer fit for service’. The above seems to be a different person than the James O’Neill from 19, Redmond Place, Liverpool born on 21/05/1892 (Wexford) – father Michael who enlisted in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers (9278) and sent overseas on 29/08/1914. He also served with the Royal Irish Regiment (18401 and 12200) and the Royal Fusiliers (GS/129127) and was KIA 10/08/1919 in Russia. Strange, same address, seemingly same father, 2yrs in age difference, but not brothers. Who is the first James? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 21 October , 2021 Share Posted 21 October , 2021 One of the other docs for JJ does name Michael as his father. Image courtesy Ancestry This implies JJ and James are brothers. However, This seems to be the same family in Wexford in 1901 http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wexford/Wexford_Urban/Ram_Street/1806362/ Ummm.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 21 October , 2021 Share Posted 21 October , 2021 (edited) The docs for JJ give a Dob of 30/5/1890 There is a James O'Neill living at that address 1918 through 1925. Michael Joseph is showing as NM (serving) in 1918 and is resident at Redmond Place in succeeding years. Electora; Registers. This may suggest that this James is John James. MJ has surviving service records - 5384 East Lancs - address on enlistment is 19 Redmond Pl. Later 242534. 1898 Dob and Michael as father. Edited 21 October , 2021 by Mark1959 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 21 October , 2021 Share Posted 21 October , 2021 Can you provide the evidence that the man who died in Russia lived at Redmond Place please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 21 October , 2021 Share Posted 21 October , 2021 This appears to be the same family in the 1901 census in Wexford and this is the birth of James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Twomey Posted 21 October , 2021 Author Share Posted 21 October , 2021 52 minutes ago, Mark1959 said: Can you provide the evidence that the man who died in Russia lived at Redmond Place please Soldier's effects below lists his sister Bridget. The 1911 Census above lists Bridget and James as the family from Wexford that emigrated to Liverpool and are then living in 19, Redmond Place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Twomey Posted 21 October , 2021 Author Share Posted 21 October , 2021 1 hour ago, Mark1959 said: The docs for JJ give a Dob of 30/5/1890 There is a James O'Neill living at that address 1918 through 1925. Michael Joseph is showing as NM (serving) in 1918 and is resident at Redmond Place in succeeding years. Electora; Registers. This may suggest that this James is John James. MJ has surviving service records - 5384 East Lancs - address on enlistment is 19 Redmond Pl. Later 242534. 1898 Dob and Michael as father. Thanks for that information Mark - I didn't know that MJ served with the East Lancs. Another avenue to pursue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Twomey Posted 21 October , 2021 Author Share Posted 21 October , 2021 "This implies JJ and James are brothers. However..." N 30 minutes ago, corisande said: This appears to be the same family in the 1901 census in Wexford and this is the birth of James Yes, Corisande that is the family - may have moved to Liverpool around 1905 as "From 2 July 1905, Overhead Railway trains began running through to Seaforth & Litherland" and employment prospects and a better standard of living may have been available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 21 October , 2021 Share Posted 21 October , 2021 I am afraid you have quite a bit of work to try to determine who he/they are 1. For example there is a J J Enniscorthy in 1901 census, but I have no idea if he is related 2. James Parents say they married around 1890 (from years married in 1911 census), but I cannot find a marriage. This may be the key, as you could perhaps then see what the relationships were Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Twomey Posted 21 October , 2021 Author Share Posted 21 October , 2021 I think this is their Marriage cert below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Twomey Posted 21 October , 2021 Author Share Posted 21 October , 2021 1 hour ago, Pat Twomey said: Soldier's effects below lists his sister Bridget. The 1911 Census above lists Bridget and James as the family from Wexford that emigrated to Liverpool and are then living in 19, Redmond Place. Something I have not thought of is that maybe this James O'Neill with a sister Bridget is not the James from Liverpool! If so then I do have a lot of work to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 21 October , 2021 Share Posted 21 October , 2021 Well the Marriage cert shows they married 19 Jul 1891 And you have "two" births John James born 20 May 1890 James born 21 May 1892 and you have the 1 Birth Cert so far found for James born 21 May 1892 So if there were to have been a John James born in 1890, it would have been out of wedlock. If he is another person, then one assumes that Michael was the father (given that the boy used the name O'Neill Annie Eliza may or may not have been the mother I cannot get a John O'Neill born Wexford in 1890, not is there a John Doyle born Wexford then . There are about 40 "John" registered in Wexford in 1890, but if the mother is not Annie Eliz Doyle, we have no idea who it was, It is probable that if Annie Eliza was not the mother , then John James would have been brought up by the real mother - but too many Johns in Wexford in 1901 census to find him I suppose my feeling is that there were 2 men, and tht sort of scenario is one that could have led to the events that happened I did think you were making quite a large jump on your assumpion on Bridget being the Liverpool girl. The Pension card gives a Carlow adress for her, and you could try that in 1911 Irish census Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 21 October , 2021 Share Posted 21 October , 2021 Gets complicated as Pensin card seems to have date of death in Russia incorrect County House or County Home Carlow may have been the workhouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Twomey Posted 21 October , 2021 Author Share Posted 21 October , 2021 Thanks for that Corisande Looks like I may have been wrong all along! It says Neill instead of O'Neill but this could be a typo. Although it gives Bridget's birth as 1895 - which would seem to fit with the Liverpool Bridget. The county home replaced the 'workhouse' in Ireland in 1922 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 22 October , 2021 Share Posted 22 October , 2021 Bridget of 19 Redmond Place became Bridget Daly on 28/12/16, Courtesy Ancestry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 22 October , 2021 Share Posted 22 October , 2021 35 minutes ago, Mark1959 said: Bridget of 19 Redmond Place became Bridget Daly on 28/12/16, Courtesy Ancestry So unlikely to be the same Bridget Neill in Carlow Workhouse in 1919 pension card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Twomey Posted 22 October , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 October , 2021 Thanks for that Mark. As you say Corisande very unlikely now that these men are linked. Back to the drawing board I'm afraid. Would the Royal Dublin Fusiliers number 9278 give us a clue to when he might have enlisted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 22 October , 2021 Share Posted 22 October , 2021 Royal Dublin Fusiliers number 9278 give us a clue to when he might have enlisted I am no expert , but the site where I normally look up numbers indicates about March 1905 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 22 October , 2021 Share Posted 22 October , 2021 (edited) J Neill 9278 1st RDF was admitted to 19 Gen Hosp, Alexandria on 9/3/16 with bronchitis. The record indicates he had 11 yrs 9mths service at the time. 9 months in field force. He was sent to the Mustapha Convalescent Hosp 10 days later. Age is given as 28. https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=S2%2FGBM%2FMH106%2FMH106-1233%2F0022&parentid=GBM%2FMH106%2FP2%2F342259 Also admitted to 18 Gen Hosp, Camiers on 11/10/1917. I will spare you the details but circumcission was the treatment. Still with 1 RDF. Edited 22 October , 2021 by Mark1959 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Twomey Posted 3 November , 2021 Author Share Posted 3 November , 2021 Thomas Downes - 9277 RDF and James O’Neill - 9278 RDF (note the consecutive numbers) both enlisted in Dublin in June 1905. Thomas Downes was living in Haddington Road Dublin according to the 1901 census; also, in the 1901 census less than 3km from Downes’ house I found a James O’Neill (13) who had a sister Bridget (7) living in Merchant’s Quay Dublin. According to the 19th General Hospital Egypt Admission & Discharge book James O’Neill (9278) was 28 years of age in March 1916 this would make him 13 in 1901 which fits with the above census returns. On his pension card his next of kin is given as ‘sister Bridget’ born 1895 which roughly fits with the above census. As I am so immersed in this search, I find it difficult to weigh up the odds on the James O’Neil from Merchant’s Quay being the same James of the RDF and possibly a friend of Thomas Downes. Would appreciate any input. Thanks, Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 3 November , 2021 Share Posted 3 November , 2021 It's interesting that Bridget claim a dependant's pension for #9278 James. This wasn't made until Sep 1923, which suggests that she wasn't in need of anything until around that time (so may be when she entered the county house). It also indicates that she had claimed some level of pre-war financial dependence on him. #39598 James is also interesting in that he was pensioned out but with a low level of disability that was settled by a gratuity pay off. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Twomey Posted 3 November , 2021 Author Share Posted 3 November , 2021 Thanks for that piece of information Craig. Is it this section that indicates a pre-war financial dependency? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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