Karl Schafer First Victory ?

[fellop]

Looking for some help or guidance please. I am preparing a talk for my local WFA branch for next year and part of it involves the shooting down of FE2d A6371 [Dodson / Richards] of 25 Sqn on the 3 April 1917 by Karl Schafer of Jasta 11. H. S. Richards is my local man and the main subject of the talk.

As a bit of background I would like to include a little about Schaefer in the talk and would like to list his 'Victories' until his own death on 5 June 1917 after being shot down by Satchell / Lewis of 20 Sqn.

I have been through the normal books; TSTB and TSTB II Trevor Henshaw, Jasta War Chronology Norman Franks, Frank Bailey and Rick Duivan, Causalities of the German Air Service, also Franks, Bailey Duivan, plus other online searches. I have now a list of Schaefer's victories from his second until his last on the 4 June 1917. Even those that are a vague claim I have, I think, been able to attempt to tie down a likely [but still unconfirmed] victim.

Help please for information on his first victim. Many online sources put the date at 22 January 1917 and some mention it being a Caudron. Anyone confirm this and any other information, Sqn, location combat report, pilot etc etc.

 

Regards

Peter

[Knotty]

Ltn. Karl Emil Schäfer flew his early Albatros D.II (serial no. 1724/16) while serving with Kasta 11 , he also wrote a book entitled “From Soldier to Pilot”, which covers the years 1914- till his demise early June 1917.
I have found an online copy at the Tubingen University and put the link below,  around page 78 there is a description of his fight with his first victim, and on page 117 is the start of a list of his victims I can make out the word Cauldron, however the book is written in the Old Germanic style, so it will need translation.

Hope it’s of some use, just copy the link into your browser and open.

 

http://idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/opendigi/FoXIIa2831#p=3

[topgun1918]

Based on comments I made on the Jasta logs created by Rick Duiven and work that I posted another Forum, the list of claims I have for Schäfer and potential victims is:

Kampfstaffel 11

22Jan17 - Ltn Schäfer-1 – French Caudron DD – Pont-à-Mousson – the only reported French casualty was a machine from Escadrille C244, Sgt Marius Pivard and Cpl Mulot both wounded.  However, this is usually credited to Oblt von Dostler of Jasta 13.

Royal Prussian Jagdstaffel 11

4Mar17 - Ltn Schäfer-2 - Sop 2 at 12.00, south-west of Haisnes – Strutter A1109, 43 Sqn RFC, 2nd-Lieut Philip Lovel Wood (Kia) & 2nd-Lieut Alan Hughes Fenton (Kia) -  [combat 11:55, believed shot down by 5 H.A. over Lens on patrol; Lens is 9 Km south of Haisnes]

4Mar17 - Ltn Schäfer-n/c - BE2 at 17.20, Guedencourt - (credited to Vzfw Heinrich Büssing of Jasta 5)

4Mar17 - Ltn Schäfer-n/c – Vickers 1 [D.H.2 or F.E.8] at 17.20, Bethune

6Mar17 - Ltn Schäfer-3 - Nieuport 1 at 11.45, Lens, Cité St Pierre  - Nieuport 16 A208, 60 Sqn RFC, 2nd-Lieut Philip Solomon Joyce (Kia) - [combat 12:00, Bapaume; BUT see also the claim by Oblt Hans Kummetz, Jasta 1]

6Mar17 - Ltn Schäfer-4 - Sop 2 at 11.55, west of Lens - 1½ Strutter A978, 43 Sqn RFC, 2nd-Lieut Stanley James Pepler (Kia) & Capt James Duff Stuart (Kia) - [combat 12:00, shot down in flames near Lens on offensive patrol]

9Mar17 - Ltn Schäfer-5 – Vickers 1 at 10.20, Faschoda – F.E.8 6397, 40 Sqn RFC, 2nd-Lieut William Brading Hills (Pow) - [took off 09:45, then missing on offensive patrol La Bassée canal - Bailleul]

9Mar17 - Ltn Schäfer-6 – Vickers 1 at 10.22, Pont à Vendin, Loos – F.E.8 A4874, 40 Sqn RFC, Lieut Geoffrey Frank Haseler (Pow) - [took off 09:45 then missing on offensive patrol La Bassée canal - Bailleul; La Bassée is 9 Km north-west of Pont-à-Vendin]

9Mar17 - Ltn Karl Emil Schäfer is forced to land.  He is OK. -

11Mar17 - Ltn Schäfer-7 - BE2 at 11.20, Loos, north of Lens – B.E.2c 4541, 2 Sqn RFC, 2nd-Lieut George Chandos Hoskins (Kia) & 2nd-Lieut George William Betts Hampton (Kia) - [combat 11:30, attacked by H.A. and brought down in flames in spinning nosedive in Loos Salient on artillery registration]

24Mar17 - Ltn Schäfer-8 - Sop 2 at 11.00, Anzin by Arras – said to be 1½ Strutter A957, 70 Sqn RFC, Capt Allan Maxwell Lowery (Wia; Dow) & Lieut George William Swann (Kia) - [took off 07:35 and last seen flying west after combat between Douai and Cambrai; Anzin is 26 Km south-west of Douai and 40 Km north-west of Cambrai] but more likely to have fallen to OfStv Edmund Nathanael, Jasta 5

3Apr17 - Ltn Schäfer-9 - FE2 at 16.20, Avion, south of Lens – F.E.2d A6371, 25 Sqn RFC, Lieut Leonard Dodson (Wia, Pow) & 2nd-Lieut Henry Scotson Richards (Wia; Dow) - [combat 16:30, driven down in hostile territory by H.A. near Lens during photography]

6Apr17 - Ltn Schäfer-10 - BE2 at 10.20, Givenchy – B.E.2d 5834, 2 Sqn RFC, Capt Victor John Whitaker (Kia) & 2nd-Lieut Arthur Roberts Brown (Kia) - [combat 10:15, Liévin, 3 Km north of Givenchy-en-Gohelle]

6Apr17 - Ltn Schäfer-11 - BE2 at 10.37, west of Vimy, Souchez – B.E.2c 6823, 16 Sqn RFC, Lieut Osbert Richmond Knight (Kia) & 2nd-Lieut Ubalde Hormisdas Seguin (Kia) - [combat 10:30, attacked by H.A. and brought down in flames Thelus on artillery observation; Thelus is 3 Km south of Vimy]

7Apr17 - Ltn Schäfer-12 – French Nieuport 1 at 17.45, Mercatel – there were no reported French Nieuport casualties on this date; Nieuport 23 A6766, 60 Sqn RFC, 2nd-Lieut Charles Sidney Hall (Kia) - [took off 16:40, combat Tilloy(-lès-Mofflaines), 6 km north-east of Mercatel]

8Apr17 - Ltn Schäfer-13 - Bristol at 14.45, Epinoy – said to be D.H.4 A2140, 55 Sqn RFC, 2nd-Lieut Robert Archibald Logan (Pow) & Lieut Frank R Henry (Pow) - [took off 13:07, last seen diving steeply after fight during bomb raid Chateau Hardenpont, near Mons, some 65 Km north-east of Épinoy]

9Apr17 - Ltn Schäfer-14 - BE2 at 19.10, Aix Noulette – said to be B.E.2d 5742, 4 Sqn RFC, Lieut Johannes Hieronymus Brink (Wia; Dow 11-Apl-17) & Lieut Robert Ellis Heath (Wia) - [combat 18:55; attacked by 5 H.A. and shot down at 'Sheet 572NW G24d' on reconnaissance] but more likely to have claimed an F.E.2d from No 25 Squadron a patrol of which was attacked by a formation of hostile scouts over Lievin; 25 Sqn suffered no casualties.

11Apr17 - Ltn Schäfer-15 – Sopwith 2 at 12.50, east of Friedhof of Arras  - B.E.2e 5811, 8 Sqn RFC, 2125 Sergt John Vincent Bell (Wia) & Lieut Henry John Quick Campbell (Wia) - [attacked by 4 H.A. and brought down south-east of Arras on artillery observation]; see also the claim by Lothar von Richthofen

11Apr17 - Ltn Schäfer-16 - Bristol 2 at 9.10, Fampoux – Bristol F.2A A3318, 48 Sqn RFC, 2nd-Lieut Robert Edward Adeney (Kia) & 2nd-Lieut Leslie Graham Lovell (Kia) - [combat 09:05, forced down near Gavrelle on offensive patrol east of Arras]

13Apr17 - Ltn Schäfer-17 - FE2 at 18.30, Le Point du Jour - 22 Sqn RFC, Lt E A Thomas (Wia) - [no details]

14Apr17 - Ltn Schäfer-18 – BE2 at 17.05, Lievin & Eleu – F.E.2b 4877, 25 Sqn RFC, Lieut H E Davies (Kia) & 2nd-Lieut Norman Walter Morrison (Kia) - [combat 16:44, brought down in flames by H.A. near Liévin and fell a complete wreck in lines on patrol]

14Apr17 - Ltn Schäfer-19 - BE2 at 17.20, La Coulotte, west of Avion  - B.E.2c 2527, 2 Sqn RFC, Capt George Barclay Lockhart (Kia) & Lieut Alexander Philip Wilson (Kia) - [reportedly shot down by H.A. on artillery patrol Bois de l'Hirondelle]

21Apr17 - Ltn Schäfer-20 – French Nieuport 1 at 17.45, east of Fresnes – the only French Nieuport casualty was suffered in a landing accident; Nieuport 23 A6797, 29 Sqn RFC, 2nd-Lieut Ferrebee Sadler (Kia) - [took off 17:30 then missing from offensive patrol] given the short time between take off and reported time of combat, it is more likely that Sadler collided with one of the other two 29 Sqn Nieuports lost at this time.  

22Apr17 - Ltn Schäfer-21 – Austin DD at 8.20, north-west of Monchy, Tilloy – said to be F.E.2b A5501, 11 Sqn RFC, 2479 Sergt John Kenneth Hollis (Pow) & Lieut Bernard Joseph Tolhurst (Pow; Dow) - [BUT took off 15:40 and almost certainly brought down by Kurt Wolff]

25Apr17 - Ltn Schäfer-22 - FE2 at 10.40, Bailleul – F.E.2d A837, 25 Sqn RFC, 2nd-Lieut Charles Verdon Darnell (Kia) & 25679 2/AM George Pawley (Kia) - [combat 10:35, shot down by H.A. and fell in flames between Willerval and Bailleul on photographic escort and line patrol]

25Apr17 - Ltn Schäfer-23 - Bristol DD at 20.30, Roeux – Bristol F.2A A3352, 48 Sqn RFC, 2nd-Lieut William James Clifford (Kia) & 2nd-Lieut Henry Lea Tomkies (Kia) - [took off 19:20, brought down about Sheet 57b.I.15 [Plouvain] in aerial combat on offensive patrol east of Arras]

Royal Württemburg Jagdstaffel 28

1May17 - Ltn Schäfer-24 – French Farman DD at 12.40, Dixmuiden - Belgian 3me Escadrille, Sgt J Pauli (Kia) & Lt J de Bersaques (Kia) -

1May17 - Ltn Schäfer-25 - Nieuport at 13.00, Poperinghe - Woestem – Nieuport 17 A6678, 1 Sqn RFC, Capt Edward Dawson Atkinson (Wia) – [combat 13:00]

9May17 - Ltn Schäfer-26 – Sopwith DD at 19.00, Warneton – said to be 1½ Strutter 7803, 45 Sqn RFC, 2nd-Lieut William Longley Mills (Kia) & 39972 2/AM John William Loughlin (Pow) – [but took off 16:20, then missing from offensive patrol Armentières - La Bassée]

20May17 - Ltn Schäfer-27 – FE DD at 11.10, Hollebeke – F.E.2d A6457, 20 Sqn RFC, Lieut Albert C Lee (Pow) & 154352 2/AM C Beminster (Pow) – [took off 09:20, then missing from offensive patrol Menin] hit by anti-aircraft fire then attacked by HA and forced to land

23May17 - Ltn Schäfer-28 - FE2 at 16.15, Warneton – F.E.2d A6468, 20 Sqn RFC, Lieut Richard Allen P Johns (Pow) & 77449 2/AM Bernard Aldred (Kia) – [missing on offensive patrol] either this machine or F.E.2d A647, Lieut Robert Geoffrey Masson (Kia) & 2nd-Lieut Frederick W Evans (Pow; Dow 26-May-17)

23May17 - Ltn Schäfer-29 – Sopwith 1 at 16.15 – Wytschaete Bogan – usually said to be F.E.2d A6466, 20 Sqn RFC, 2nd-Lieut W Howarth (Wia) & 77646 Sergt Frederick Bird (Kia) – [took off 10:46 then force landed near Vlamertinghe after H.A. encounter during offensive patrol] but more likely to be Pup A665, 46 Sqn RFC, 2nd-Lieut James Pedraza Stephen (Kia) – [brought down near Kemmel in combat with H.A. on patrol]

4Jun17 - Ltn Schäfer-30 – Rumpf 2 at 14.15, by Moorslede, Ypres – said to be D.H.4 A7420, 55 Sqn RFC, Lieut Douglas James Honer (Kia) & 13342 Pte George Cluney (Kia) – [took off 13:10, then attacked by H.A. and went down in spin south-west of Ingelmunster on bomb raid]

5Jun17 - Ltn Karl Emil Schäfer is KIA at 14.35 hours over Zandvoorde by Ypres - [Lieut Harold Leslie Satchell & Lieut Thomas Archibald Melford Stuart Lewis, 20 Sqn RFC, Albatros DIII crashed 14:35, Becelaere – Zandvoorde]

I have guoted German Time throughout.

Graeme

 

[fellop]

My thanks to both 'Knotty' and Graeme for their very kind and informative replies.

I have downloaded the book and for the relevant passages I shall pass to the in-house interpretor, my Daughter in Law, who is German.

I am overwhelmed by the full and comprehensive listing kindly given by Graeme of Schaefer's victories, I shall spend time reading through and adding information to the less impressive listings I came up with.

Thanks again to both.

Regards

Peter