Rudyard Kipling's Son

[andrew pugh]

Good Afternoon

Could anybody tell me who discovered the son of Rudyard Kipling was it an independent researcher or a researcher at the C W G C?

Regards

Andy

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

The late Richard Laughton might have asked you to clarify what you meant by 'discovered'?
There's a brief synopsis of the case here:

 

[thetrenchrat22]

The grave of Kipling was identified by Military Historian, Norm Christie, then Records Officer of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission in 1992, and now he is officially listed as buried in St Mary's ADS Cemetery in Haisnes.[8] In 2002 research by military historians Tonie and Valmai Holt suggested that this grave was that of another officer, Arthur Jacob of the London Irish Rifles.[9][10] In January 2016, however, further research by Graham Parker and Joanna Legg demonstrated that the original identification of the grave was correct. A spokesman for the Commonwealth War Graves Commission stated that it "welcomed the latest research which supports the identification of the grave of John Kipling".

Edited 18 October , 2021 by thetrenchrat22

[thetrenchrat22]

I did managed sometime ago, been able to look at the report he made, which did appear on his website. 
 

it was simply case that 1 Lieutenant from the Irish guards from missing in the Loos area.  John Kipling was a Lieutenant and was killed in the Loos Area. 
 

it was nothing like to what you have to submit today.  
 

 

[andrew pugh]

Good Evening to you both.

The reason I asked the question is because my wife's Step Father sends me newspaper cutting which I sometimes find of interest. One of the recent ones ( Daily Mail )  concerns a book that has been written by a chap called Robert Sackville-West, The Searchers; The Quest for the Lost of the First World War. At the end of the newspaper article it say's and I quote

" A diligent researcher at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission spotted an entry in the register of an unknown dug up in No Man's land near Loos. The body had been reburied as an unknown Lieutenant  of the Irish Guards. The coincidence was too great. It checked out obviously Lt John Kipling.

It seems that the C W G C took the credit. Independent Researchers me being one of them are never officially recognised for their research which has lead to hundreds of unknowns from ww1 and ww2 being identified each year. What they should do for each successful case is to say that due to research/evidence carried out by an independent researcher it has now been possible to identify this casualty and enter it on the C W G C casualty detail page on their site. Only if the researcher wants their name mentioned of course. The closest they came to this was for a case that I did for Cpl Thomas Houston when they entered the words Recent research has shown that Corporal Houston is buried here (Bancourt B C) The headstone on the grave is currently to that of an unknown soldier, and will be changed shortly. No mention of the researcher. I know this is being talked about among the folks that research unknown casualties with the hope of identifying them. I think researchers should be given the credit for their dedicated long and sometimes complicated research.      

Regards

Andy     

[rolt968]

2 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

The late Richard Laughton might have asked you to clarify what you meant by 'discovered'?
There's a brief synopsis of the case here:

 

 

56 minutes ago, thetrenchrat22 said:

I did managed sometime ago, been able to look at the report he made, which did appear on his website. 
 

it was simply case that 1 Lieutenant from the Irish guards from missing in the Loos area.  John Kipling was a Lieutenant and was killed in the Loos Area. 
 

it was nothing like to what you have to submit today.  
 

 

The entire thread which Dai quotes is well worth reading. It contains a lot of research by members of the forum.  I think I will refrain from comment and let the thread speak for itself.

RM

[thetrenchrat22]

I’m waiting for the rededication service for James Mclean in Fosse 7 Cemetery to took place next year, as I have been advised by his great nephew that the service is due to take place in March 2022, it was due in March 2020
 

to see if my name appears in the press release, as I know that great nephew will mention my when interviewed as I work with him 

it will also be interesting to see if the CWGC JCCC contact me before hand to see if I want my name released

 

I do think it’s strange that the CWGC and the JCCC don’t name the people who actually do the research or confirm it was an independent researcher.  
 

 

 

[andrew pugh]

Hi Trenchrat

I have 4 rededications that will hopefully take place next year 2022. They are all from different Regiments but all killed on the same date, all indifferent cemeteries within a couple of miles of each other. That will be interesting to see how they work that one out.. I am seriously thinking of contacting people right at the top of the tree. I believe one of them is an MP ex military man and the other is a retired high ranking Officer and of course there's the Duke right at the top of the tree. This is a big thing that we all do for these men a lot of time and patience involved. Thanks for replying.

Kind Regards

Andy 

[thetrenchrat22]

Andy, 

im going to see how it pans out with James Mclean and see if my name appears in the press release, also if it’s worded to read that the CWGC and JCCC did all the research.  Then I will write to the DG and Secretary of State for Defence about this. 
 

of the cases so far I have submitted, 6 have been accepted.  Only 1 has had rededication service so far.  
 

in the JCCC mod pages, all it states ‘the final resting place of Capt Kington came to light after researchers submitted evidence that suggested he had been found.  Further investigation to corroborate this finding was undertaken by the MOD’s JCCC and the National Army Museum enabling the identification of the ‘Unknown Soldier’s’ grave to be confirmed by the JCCC.

it was 3 researchers, a Belgian Schoolboy, a Scottish Vicar and I. 

when I spoke to the JCCC, after I received the letter from them as the great grandson of Captain Kington wanted to speak to me.  I mentioned to the JCCC that I was happy for my name to be in the press releases but it never did. 
 

however when I spoke to the great grandson, my name did appear in the Times Newspaper as he is a Times Correspondent based in Italy. 
 

Alan

[Saddler]

I didn't realise there were so any identifications completed by other private researchers. I had  my first successful one this year ( I submitted it in 2014, someone else completed it last year ), it was the first New Zealand identification done successfully by a private researcher. I have submitted two more and I am preparing one more. I agree  private researchers should  have the option of being acknowledged. Obviously we don't do it for personal recognition, but credit where credit is due would be a nice acknowledgment.

[andrew pugh]

Hi Saddler

Well done mate, another one off the missing list's keep them coming. There are possibly hundreds of us that research these soldiers from both world wars, they all deserve a named grave.

Kind Regards

Andy  

[LDT006]

Sorry to be late in this topic.

On 19/10/2021 at 06:54, thetrenchrat22 said:

in the JCCC mod pages, all it states ‘the final resting place of Capt Kington came to light after researchers submitted evidence that suggested he had been found.  Further investigation to corroborate this finding was undertaken by the MOD’s JCCC and the National Army Museum enabling the identification of the ‘Unknown Soldier’s’ grave to be confirmed by the JCCC.

I think the above statement is correct, researchers submit a report but JCCC does that all over. They briefly explained to me how they work and what evidence they used from our report for one of my accepted cases.

Our report had 3 other RFC casualties which had to be excluded, JCCC broadened this to 41... The exhumation report had a little detail (Blue Chevron) that I didn't address but was deciding for JCCC to exclude the last possible candidate who was in the RNAS (we forgot to include RNAS casualties) in stead of RFC. Quote: "members of the RNAS were not permitted to wear overseas service chevrons......RNAS were entitled to a silver or gold braid sea service chevron". This was completely new to me, I thought that our report was complete, including the service record, casualty cards, combat reports etc.., but JCCC investigated much more and deeper.

On 19/10/2021 at 06:54, thetrenchrat22 said:

im going to see how it pans out with James Mclean and see if my name appears in the press release, also if it’s worded to read that the CWGC and JCCC did all the research.  Then I will write to the DG and Secretary of State for Defence about this. 

Fully agree that more credit should be given to researchers, we spend a lot of time and money on this. (I used and paid an independent researcher for copies of service files and other documents at KEW).

I was, and still am, in contact with other researchers, some are on this topic... :-) . I have been told that this issue is currently being addressed by a UK MP to "the Director General of CWGC and Secretary of State for Defence", it looks that this might be pursued very far.

Luc.

[micks]

 

I attended the rededication ceremony for Captain Eric Edwards in 2019. During the after service drinks I was surprised when I was presented with a MoD wall plaque in recognition of my own work.

I also have my own issues with the JCCC. However there are people within this department who make the effort to acknowledge the researchers.

 

[Simon Birch]

On 18/10/2021 at 20:56, andrew pugh said:

Good Evening to you both.

The reason I asked the question is because my wife's Step Father sends me newspaper cutting which I sometimes find of interest. One of the recent ones ( Daily Mail )  concerns a book that has been written by a chap called Robert Sackville-West, The Searchers; The Quest for the Lost of the First World War. At the end of the newspaper article it say's and I quote

" A diligent researcher at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission spotted an entry in the register of an unknown dug up in No Man's land near Loos. The body had been reburied as an unknown Lieutenant  of the Irish Guards. The coincidence was too great. It checked out obviously Lt John Kipling.

It seems that the C W G C took the credit. Independent Researchers me being one of them are never officially recognised for their research which has lead to hundreds of unknowns from ww1 and ww2 being identified each year. What they should do for each successful case is to say that due to research/evidence carried out by an independent researcher it has now been possible to identify this casualty and enter it on the C W G C casualty detail page on their site. Only if the researcher wants their name mentioned of course. The closest they came to this was for a case that I did for Cpl Thomas Houston when they entered the words Recent research has shown that Corporal Houston is buried here (Bancourt B C) The headstone on the grave is currently to that of an unknown soldier, and will be changed shortly. No mention of the researcher. I know this is being talked about among the folks that research unknown casualties with the hope of identifying them. I think researchers should be given the credit for their dedicated long and sometimes complicated research.      

Regards

Andy     

Well put Andy.

I don't want a medal - a simple thank you would be nice though.

Simon

[Cheshire22]

3 hours ago, Simon Birch said:

Well put Andy.

I don't want a medal - a simple thank you would be nice though.

Simon

That’s right, it’s not about tea and medals at the end of day.  
 

It’s about respect and truth.  The CWGC & JCCC Should respect that the researchers have taken their own time and money to look into cemeteries and the CWGC & JCCC tell the truth in their press releases, that it was an independent researchers that brought the cases to their attention, not themselves