Long shot at identification.

[jemwall]

All

I hope those better versed in such things than I can assist with this. I'm trying to identify the activty/regiment of my Great Grandfather, but have very little information. His name, William Clark (no known middle name to assist) shows a large amount of records - although I have discounted attestation papers that I can find through place of birth. That leaves medal cards, but without knowing the regiment are very difficult to eliminate.

The only information I have is the attached photo, of him signing up in 1914 (Picture 1). As most of them are in civilian clothes, that also isn't much help.

However, there is one chap (not him) in uniform, and a cap badge is visible (blown up in Picture 2). I've agonised over charts trying to see what it is but I'm not well eductaed enough in the differences between similar cap badges. Now, it may well be that whatever that badge is, it isn't the regiment he was joining, but it's all I've got. I'm hoping that if I can identify that I can maybe cross reference his name and the regiment with medal cards and find a match to work on.

Thanks in advance, and assitance is greatly appreciated.

[rolt968]

It looks like the Army Service Corps to me.

RM

[jemwall]

Thanks rolt968 - a quick Ancestry search does have a William Clark in the RASC. I will put that on my list of probables, but more than happy for any other suggestions. It all gives me something to follow up!

Thanks again, you might have hit a coconut first time!

[Michelle Young]

Might be the North Somerset Yeomanry? @FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Might be the North Somerset Yeomanry? @FROGSMILE

The dark ring around the centre makes it reminiscent of the Devonshire Regiment, as does the pale coloured central part.  The North Somerset Yeomanry has a similar shape but has more points to its star and is all white metal, so it shouldn’t have that dark ring. 

Edited 14 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[jemwall]

Unsurprisingly, there are (so far) 6 people of the same name in teh Army Service Corps, but it's still more focused than I was before.

I do have to say that the Devonsghire Regiment badge does look to have that 'squareness' in the centre of the original.

More digging to be done!

Thanks again all

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, jemwall said:

Unsurprisingly, there are (so far) 6 people of the same name in teh Army Service Corps, but it's still more focused than I was before.

I do have to say that the Devonsghire Regiment badge does look to have that 'squareness' in the centre of the original.

More digging to be done!

Thanks again all

I think there’s a strong chance that it is Devonshire Regiment.  There’s no dark ring on the ASC badge and I would also have expected to see more features relating to horsed transport such as spurs, bandoliers and horse lines had it been an ASC camp scene.

Edited 14 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Tawhiri]

A quick look at the medal rolls produces two plain William Clark's serving with the Devonshire Regiment, one of who has just the British War and Victory medals, so first entered a theatre of war after 1 January 1916, the other has a full trio, including the 1914-15 Star, with a first entry to a theatre of war on 27 September 1915. The latter was transferred to the Z Reserve on 12 July 1919. Could be a possibility if he enlisted in 1914, and the unit badge identification of the Devonshire Regiment is correct. This particular individual also has a couple of pension index cards with an address of St Judes, Bristol.

[jemwall]

Thanks for looking Tawhiri - my one is east London - Hackney area.

I sense a long slog with this one......

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Definitely not ASC in my opinion.

[PRC]

Hi @jemwall and a belated welcome to the forum.

You say this is your great-grandfather so there must be a great-grandmother (When) did the couple marry - would it have been while he was serving? If so grooms' occupation on the marriage certificate should show rank and regiment \ corps as a minimum, although sometimes it will just say soldier and sometimes it will have much more.

Similarly if any children were born during the time he might have been serving, fathers' occupation on the childs' birth certificate will give a similar level of information about his rank and unit.

Depending on when any of this happened, the addresses given on those certificates could also help with tieing down his home address circa 1918/1919 which in turn throws up the possibility on tracking him down on the Absent Voters lists for those years.  The 1918 Representation of the Peoples Act is nowadays remembered for extending the vote to some women, but it's biggest impact at the time was to do away with property qualifications for all male voters and drop the voting age to 21, (over 18 for those serving in the armed forces). Many of these new voters were away from home, hence the importance of the Absent Voters Lists (AVL's). The 1918 one will often reflect service numbers and units as they were known to other family members, but the 1919 ones were usually more comprehensive and verified. The biggest show stopper is finding out where someone might have been recorded, and then trying to track the AVL down. There is more on how the AVL's can help your search on our parent site here:- https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

Local Press is another line of attack, although much of East London is poorly served by the likes of the British Newspaper Achive. You mention the family was in the Hackney area. Have you managed to locate William on the 1911 Census of England and Wales?

Cheers,
Peter

[George Rayner]

Are there are family details you could share?

Birthdates, addresses, Census returns, siblings, spouse, marriage as Peter has suggested. Sometimes research isn't a straight line!

George

[Madmeg]

I'd agree with George- what DO you know about him?DoB, PoB, spouse, children, date and place of marriage? parents etc etc might help people narrow it down- pension records?

[jemwall]

@PRC - Thank you so much for that; not just for this enquiry but for future ones. I checked as suggested. Inconveniently, he married in 1920 and is mentioned as a 'Discharged Soldier' on the parish register. I'm hoping my mum will have the marriage certificate itself, but if not I'll order it. Even after the war you never know.

So on to the AVLs. I looked on the list and it said that Tower Hamlets was included in Ancestry subscriptions, but when I checked there were no Tower Hamlets entries. Perhaps they are at Find My Past?

And in answer to both @PRC and @George Rayner, I am more than happy to supply details if it helps. I was just very careful to not be one of those people who jump on to a forum and appear to want all their work done for them! So:

William CLARK, born 06/11/1898 in Hackney Wick (40 White Post Lane). Married 31/10/1920 to Elizabeth Florence Louisa WEBB in the parish church of St Mark's, Victoria Park, Hackney. Six children all after 1921 (would details of those help?).

Addresses from census: 1901: 33 Felstead Street, Hackney (although listed as 4 years old). 1911: 49 Trego Road, Hackney. Marrieage Record: 42 Trego Road, Hackney.

Mother's name is Jemima COULDRIDGE. Father's name seems to vary - he is either Henry Richard Clark on most documentation, or Henry William Clark on the marriage record.

If the experts on here can suggest a bit more, I'll go and do the leg work. Really grateful for all the help and suggestions. This is an amazing community!

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

8 minutes ago, jemwall said:

So on to the AVLs. I looked on the list and it said that Tower Hamlets was included in Ancestry subscriptions

Where did you see that?

I wasn't aware that there was a surviving list for Tower Hamlets.

It isn't listed here:

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

[jemwall]

If you look under the section

Lists known to be available for purchase or pay-per-view

It lists it there, but that may be an error.

Apologies for formatting - on my phone!

[TEW]

Looking at present at Tower Hamlets but only seeing Bermondsey & Bethnal Green for 1920.

Try a search for Allard #3602.

My London geography isn't up to the task.

NB. With his given birth date that makes him 15 coming up to 16 in the group photo?

TEW 

[FROGSMILE]

TEW makes a good point.  Which person is he in the group photo.  There are two young lads (teens), one rear row, standing third from right, and one seated cross legged centrally.  Another at rear with fag hanging from mouth looks a tad older.

Edited 15 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

2 minutes ago, jemwall said:

William CLARK, born 06/11/1898 in Hackney Wick

So several months short of his 16th birthday at the time Britain joined the Great War and judging from the ground conditions and the shirt sleeve we haven't got to the wet weather in the NW Europe from October 1914 that made life under canvas so miserable, (and infection prone) for the new recruits. and campaigning so difficult on the other side of the North Sea.

So which one of this "motley" group do you think is our underage recruit?

Because they were lying about their age to join up, it will be impossible to be sure about numbers. However if my experience in researching the Norfolks is anything to go by, a number would be reclaimed by their parents. Others would "self-identify" as under age during winter 1914\spring 1915 - probably through a mixture of army life not turning out to be like they expected and a realisation of the reality of war.

All kinds of scenarios could be at play - many of those "discharged as having made a mis-statement as to age" would later be called up on reaching 18 after the introduction of conscription in 1916. Others, being 17 by the time this came to light, were held back in the UK until reaching 19, the official age at which they could go out to a Theatre of War. By that stage they could have ended up serving with anyone - and of course it wouldn't have been until November 1917.

So while he could have got away with lying about his age, gone overseas with this group and unit and seen out he war - the cap badge of the man in uniform could also be a complete red herring.

Sorry I can't be more helpful right now - but will put my thinking cap on.

39 minutes ago, jemwall said:

I am more than happy to supply details if it helps. I was just very careful to not be one of those people who jump on to a forum and appear to want all their work done for them! So:

No worries - many people come to the forum seeking information on relatives and try to silo the military and the civil records - when in most cases they are mutally reinforcing. Wasn't sure if you came in that category so had to ask the question

Cheers,

Peter

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

51 minutes ago, jemwall said:

If you look under the section

Lists known to be available for purchase or pay-per-view

It lists it there, but that may be an error.

Apologies for formatting - on my phone!

Yes, you're  right, I wasn't  looking under London!

[FROGSMILE]

One point is that the almost complete absence of uniform apart from the single fellow with cap badge suggests this photo shows one of the embryo, war-raised, ‘service battalions’, perhaps of K1.  

Edited 15 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[jemwall]

All

Thank you for your input. I have no idea why I typed the DOB as 1898 - it is 06/11/1896.

I've dug out the photo and conveniently written on the back by my nan it says 'dad (3rd from right front row) when joining up age 17'

All of the scenarios could be possible. I think I will be lucky to come across a thread to pull at with this one. I might be lucky and find the key peice of information, but there are so many variables in play it is very difficult with what I have. I did think he was a discharged soldier, but as I'm an idiot got that mixed up with his father's occupation. He (our subject) was put down as a cutler.

I'll continue to search, but thank you all again.

Edited 15 October , 2021 by jemwall

[TEW]

Might be old news but Ancestry have a file for a Henry Richard Clark of 42 Trego Rd, Hackney.

Attested 12/6/1915, into ASC same day #110561. His age looks to be 42! but he is a widow (Jemima) married Hackney Wick 1889. Children Florence & Winifred.

NOK is a son, Henry Richard Clark at 42 Trego. Are these going to be William's father & brother? Not sure why William & Henry jnr. are not listed as children though.

TEW

[jemwall]

@TEW Yes, that is indeed his Father and the eldest son. I'm working my way up the tree so that is welcome information. Yes, curious that about the children - there is another one (eldest daughter) missing off the list too.

I've got him born in 1870, so it's entirely possible that while the son added years on, the father took some off!

[TEW]

Henry Snr. has a pension card & ledger entry. Can't view it, has that got childrens' details?

TEW