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TIFEVISIT, IDEIESMO, IDEEPAW, IDEISABATE, IDEENTRANS, IDEENLAND, IDELJACK, IDIERCAT, IDEENRENG - codes in 2BRC WD


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This is a follow on from this thread https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/291428-taylor-wounded-st-julien-31-july-1917-andor-on-hmhs-essequibo-on-1-august-1918-help-with-acronymscode-words-in-2-brc-wd/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-3053514  , where the meaning of the above acronyms/codewords in the 2 BRC WD was considered. No firm conclusions were reached in that earlier thread, but I said that I would type up some extracts from the WD where the words are used, to see if that would help with interpreting them.

I have now done this, and am starting a new thread, this time in the Medical Services Forum. If nothing else, this may help people searching online for reference to their antecedents. I apologise in advance for the length of this post!

An initial point worth making is that the WD shows that far more men were passing through 2 BRC than are mentioned in the context of having the acronyms/codewords attached to them, so the acronyms/codewords must indicate that something out of the ordinary was happening to these men, which didn’t apply to all the many patients who went through 2 BRC – my grandad was a patient there 3 times, but never had any of these words attached to him, thankfully.

In the other thread I made some tentative guesses regarding the meaning of some of the words. I won't repeat the whole of the discussion in that other thread, but I will just quote the following extract:

The acronyms or codewords began to be used only with effect from 15 February 1917, WO-95-4111-5, the first one being IDEEPAW. That is applied to three officers, Lieut J.G.W. Weedon 18th AIF, GSW amp[utatio]n thigh, 2/Lt S.T.Stephens 2/Devons Pneumonia, and 2/Lt J.G. Frew 14/ A[rgyll] & S[utherland] H[ighlande]rs, the latter with no medical details.

All three have been mentioned earlier in the diary as being "placed on the dangerously ill list", Weedon on 16 January 1917, Stephens on 8 February 1917, and Frew on 9 February 1917 (from which we learn that the latter's life-threatening condition was "appendicitis, complication pelvic peritonitis".

… [On] three [of the early] occasions in which strange initials are used, words appear after them which just may be translations for staff not yet used to using them. In fact, I think that the letters "i.e." may appear between the initials and the long hand words in two of the three entries.

These three entries are an entry on 7 February 1917 "IDEENRENG Transferred dangerously ill to England 2/Lt J.G. Stuart 5/Scottish Rifles GSW Spine", and two entries on 23 February 1917 "TIFEVISIT i.e.[?] Placed on dang[erously] ill list Lieutenant Macdonald 1/2nd Canadians GSW Leg, and "IDELJACK i.e.[?] Transferred home dangerously ill Lieut C,D.G. Deen RHA amputation R[ig]t leg and left foot".

Thereafter the acronyms/code words continue to be used but never again, so far as I can see, with anything that looks like a possible translation.

It is, however, noteworthy that up to 15 February 1917, the words "placed on dangerously ill list" have appeared quite frequently accompanied by names of individual officers together with details of their medical problem, but after 15 February 1917 this phrase no longer appears, so it seems fair to assume that in some way the acronyms codewords have replaced these words.

it is also noteworthy that prior to 15 February 1917 it is quite common for there to be a record of relatives visiting dangerously ill patients, but that too stops with effect from 15 February 1917, suggesting that either it was no longer thought necessary to keep a record, or the acronyms/code words have taken the place of that record.

Also in the earlier part of the diary there is very often a record of someone being moved off the dangerously ill list, or, inevitably, someone who was on the dangerously ill list dying. The latter continues to be recorded long hand with the time of death, but the former is no longer recorded, at least in long hand.

Based on the above, it seems to me quite likely that "TIFEVISIT" might record in some way a visit to dangerously ill patients, or at least an invitation to visit them…

The only other thing I will quote from the other thread is a link to another thread where the word IDEENLAND appears, with reference to two separate documents, both telegrams, and that led to a suggestion that the word might be a telegraphic address. The link is https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/197654-sender-of-telegram-proclicas-can-anyone-identify/?tab=comments#comment-2385576

Turning to my further researches in the 2 BRC WD, I attach a document which lists all the appearances of the words in a four month period from July through to October 1917 extracted from WO-95-4111-6. I then reproduced these in the form of a table, the first part of which I have reproduced at the end of this post (the rest will follow in the next post, as there isn't room in this one), assembling each of the words as used with reference to a particular individual, along with dates, and details of the individual’s injury or illness. I also looked back in the WD to the date when the words first began to be used in February 1917, and forward to the end of WO-95-4111-7 (June 1918), looking for any other references to men who had already been included in my table, entering the dates for those further references in the table in red.

The only entries in the attached document which I didn’t carry across into the table are those where, even after looking back to February 1917, and forward to June 1918, I have not been able to find any second entry relating to the same man.

The single entries are:

IDEIESMO: Capt G.S. Bruce (05/08/1917), Lt. H.G. Freeman (11/08/1917), Sub-Lt. Elphicke (29/08/1917), Lt. S. Flitcroft (22/09/1917), 2/Lt. R.A. Quirk (14/09/1917), 2/Lt. H. Jackson (14/10/1917)

IDEEPAW; Major M.M. Brice (05/10/1917)

IDEISABATE: Lt. A. Crawford (09/07/1917), Capt. W.W.L. Pugh (05/08/1917), 2/Lt. W.G. Campbell (16/09/1917), 2/Lt G.M. Lamb (21/10/1917)

TIFEVISIT: Capt. W. Messenger (21/08/1917), 2/Lt. F.R. Forster (11/09/1917)

IDEENLAND: Capt. A. Wood (22/09/1917)

Died: Capt. J. Black (26/09/1917), Brevet Col. W.V. Dickinson (28/10/1917), Lt. R.G.A. Simpson (31/10/1917)

In the case of men who have a single entry of TIFEVISIT, it may be that the injury wasn’t particularly serious, and that they didn’t require any special attention, while in the case of the 3 men who only have an entry relating to their death it is clear that they died suddenly of a heart attack or similar and/or either just after, or just before, their arrival at the hospital, so clearly that is the explanation for there being no other entries. Possible explanations in the other cases are that I may have missed other entries relating to these men, especially if they are outside the period I have searched, or that those completing the WD may have inadvertently omitted to make other entries, or it may be that these men were for some reason transferred to other local hospitals and that no particular entry logging their transfer was thought necessary.

It is also worth mentioning that I have only come across three instances of two words being applied to the same man on the same day; TIFEVISIT and IDEIESMO are both applied to 2/Lt. W.E. Coates on 30/10/1917, while IDEEPAW and IDEISABATE are both applied to Lt. E.H. Tattersall, 5th Dragoon Guards on 6 April 1918, and IDEENTRANS and IDEEPAW are both applied to Capt. T.B. Wynn on 06/06/1918.

It is also unusual to have the same word applied to the same person more than once. An example is IDEIESMO in the case of Lt. W. D. Kenyon (column 2), but this may be because of his condition unexpectedly worsening (see below). TIFEVISIT is quite often applied twice to the same man, but, after all, it is only to be expected that a man might be allowed more than one visit if his stay at 2 BRC became prolonged. Other examples of words being twice applied to the same man in swift succession are:

(1)   2/Lt. Greaves, IDEEPAW (Column 24)

(2)   2/Lt. G.N.D. Sinclair, IDEEPAW (Column 38)

(3)   2/Lt S.L. Marshall, IDEISABATE (Column 46)

It is possible that in all these cases it is a simple mistake. IDEENTRANS is applied two days running to Capt. T.T. Taylor on 31 July 1918 and 1 August 1918, which may also be an error if it means “transferred”, as he can’t have been transferred twice, and there is more than one instance of two entries being made for the death of the same man, which must be an error (e.g. 2/Lt. G.W. Sinclair and Lt. G.O. Pierre on 2/3 December 1917 and Lt. A.G. Bayley on 13 December 1917).

I am now certain that TIFEVISIT refers to visits to men who were at risk of early death, or whose stay in 2 BRC was expected to be protracted. I have noted that on several occasions "TIFEVISIT" is accompanied in the right hand margin by details of an actual visit by relatives. For example the entry for 2/Lt. S.C. Williams, column 4, dated 23/05/1917 says: “To recall father, condition critical”, while the entry for Lt. H.W.L. Preston, column 17, dated 14/07/1917 has a note: ”Requesting wife to visit”, that for 2/Lt S. Bennett, column 71, dated 21/07/1917 says: “Allow mother to visit, father returning home”, and that for Major J.W. Coe, column 40, dated 09/10/1917 says “Wire for brother to visit, condition critical”. Could it be that the word stands for "Too ill for evacuation Visit", or "Too ill for England Visit"?

It is noteworthy that all the words except for TIFEVISIT and IDIERCAT begin with IDE, and it seems likely that these three initials stand for the same thing. “In danger” seems likely for “ID”, given that it seems likely that these words are replacing earlier long hand references to patients being dangerously ill. If the “E” also means the same thing in each case, maybe it might be “of Expiry” or similar?

Next, the words IDEIESMO, IDEEPAW and IDEISABATE are by far the most common. Sometimes all three are used by reference to one man, sometimes only two, but, if they are used, they almost always appear chronologically in this order in the table. There are only three example of IDEIESMO appearing after IDEEPAW, columns 2, 3 and 15. It seems very likely indeed that these words report the degree of danger the patients in question were in, that IDEEPAW indicated less danger than IDEIESMO, and that IDEISABATE, containing the word “ABATE” meant that the danger had passed, at least for the time being. If this is right, then the patients in columns 2, 3 & 15 of the table below took an unexpected turn for the worse.

It is likely that the words would have indicated something in general terms about the level of care the men required, rather than specifics as to their treatment. If so, you would expect that IDEIESMO would be the equivalent of intensive care, IDEEPAW a less high level care, but still needing to be watched carefully, and that IDEISABATE meant that they now needed no more than normal care.

I am sure that others will be better equipped to me to guess exactly what the words stood for, or what their origin was, but, for what it is worth, the following might fit the bill, at least in sentiment, but my guesses are unlikely to be strictly correct, especially as I am not sure that “amber watch” was a thing in those days:

IDEIESMO: In danger of expiry, intense emergency support, monitor around the clock.

IDEEPAW: In danger of expiry, emergency possible, amber watch.

IDEISABATE: In danger of expiry (and need for) intense support abated.

Not infrequently a man passes straight from TIFEVISIT to Died, without any entry for IDEIESMO, which might be thought odd if IDEIESMO is some sort of intensive care, but presumably it indicates that they felt that there was nothing that they could do except wait for death in those cases. One particularly sad example of this is 2/Lt. H. Bell, GSW Head, Lacerated Brain, who was designated TIFEVISIT on 25/09/1917, and died just over 3 weeks later on 17/10/1917 (column 51).

Another point of interest is that in my table the last time a person is mentioned it is almost invariably either because a man had died, or with the tag IDEISABATE (which makes sense if this means “out of danger – back to a normal level of nursing”), or IDEENTRANS (which again makes sense if this means that the man is being transferred away from the hospital, which is surely indicated by the suffix “TRANS”).

Exceptions are  Lt. G.E. Baker, Lt. W.D. Kenyon, Lt. C.S. Hincks, 2/Lt J. Bennett, Sub Lt. G. Smith, 2/Lt. G. Greaves,  2/Lt. W.R. Slater, 2/Lt A.A. Greensill,  2/Lt. R.H. Peckston (columns 2, 3, 5, 8, 22, 24, 43, 50, 61).

The possible explanations for this are the same as in the case of the single entries mentioned above. In the case of Greaves, column 24, I have already surmised above, that the second entry of IDEEPAW may be an error for IDEISABATE.

The final entries that I have been able to identify in these cases vary between IDEEPAW, IDEIESMO and TIFEVISIT, save for one stand out case of IDELJACK, 2/Lt. R.H. Peckston, column 63, which the “translation” referred to in my earlier thread suggests is equivalent to IDEENRENG, both meaning the same as what I am guessing IDEENTRANS means, namely, transferred home or to England dangerously ill. Incidentally there are no examples of IDEENRENG at all in the 4 months I looked at in detail.

Thinking about the suggestion in the thread https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/197654-sender-of-telegram-proclicas-can-anyone-identify/?tab=comments#comment-2385576

that IDEENLAND might be a telegraphic address, I can see that when transferring dangerously ill patients, it might have been necessary to wire ahead so that the medical staff to whom they were going would be ready to receive them, perhaps even meeting them at the port, and that it is possible that telegraphic addresses were created specifically for the purpose of receiving such messages.  If men were destined for different hospitals in the UK that might explain why there appear to be at least 3 different words used with similar intent, IDEENTRANS, IDEENRENG and IDELJACK.

IDEENLAND itself is, however, very puzzling. It is rarely used. In my table it features only 9 times, in columns 4, 11, 34, 37, 60, 75, 83, 85 and 90. In all except the last two cases, it is not the last time a man is mentioned, but the first. In the last two cases, columns 85 and 90, the man died the very next day, as also happened to the man mentioned in column 83. If it is a telegraphic address, what was being telegraphed about these 7 men in particular, and by whom, and to whom? It is also perhaps just worth mentioning that there is one rather odd entry “IDEENLANOP” on 13/05/1917, in case this may contain a clue, as this looks like more than just a mis-spelling of IDEENLAND.

And what about IDIERCAT, which only appears once in my table, in column 5, between TIFEVISIT and IDEEPAW? There is at least one other example of this word in the WD, for Lt. J.H. Barnes on 2 May 1917. Lt. Barnes sadly died on 8 May 1917.

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

Name

2/Lt. F.G Naldrett

Lt. G.E. Baker

Lt. W.D. Kenyon

Lt. H.C. Bellamy

2/Lt. S.C. Williams

Lt. C.S. Hincks

Capt. L. Byrne

Injury/

Condition,

if known

GSW Thigh

GSWs Leg Amputation L. Thigh

Bullet Wound Leg

Not Known

GSW Leg Fracture Femur

Pyremic Knee Amputation

GSW Chest and Leg

GSW Leg

Fracture

IDEENLAND

 

 

 

14/04/1917

 

 

 

IDEIESMO

 

 

14/04/1917

 

 

 

06/05/1917

TIFEVISIT  (1)

09/04/1917

10/04/1917

 

 

25/04/1917

29/04/1917

 

TIFEVISIT  (2)

 

 

 

 

23/05/1917

 

 

IDIERCAT

 

 

 

 

 

10/07/1917

 

IDEEPAW

11/06/1917

09/07/1917

 

11/06/1917

29/06/1917

23/08/1917

 

IDEISABATE

09/07/1917

 

05/08/1917

09/07/1917

09/07/1917

27/09/1917

09/07/1917

IDEIESMO

 

30/07/1917

29/10/1917

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

Name

Lt. J.C. Donaldson

2/Lt J. Bennett

Capt.  A.G. Picton Davies

Lt. H.M. Hamilton-Fisher

Capt. S. Bowra

2/Lt. A.G. Bailey

Major W.M. Hayman

Injury/

Condition,

if known

GSW Shoulder

Multiple Bomb Wounds

Multiple Wounds

GSW Shoulder Penetrating Chest

Multiple Wounds

Wounds Head and Leg, Fracture Femur(Accident – collision between motor and train)

GSW Legs

IDE(EN)LAND

 

 

 

12/06/1917

 

 

 

IDEIESMO

 

 

 

 

 

17/06/1917

17/06/1917

TIFEVISIT

06/05/1917

24/05/1917

07/06/1917

 

17/06/1917

 

20/06/1917

IDEEPAW

11/06/1917

09/07/1917

29/06/1917

29/06/1917

29/06/1917

 

 

IDEISABATE

09/07/1917

 

09/07/1917

09/07/1917

09/07/1917

 

 

IDEENTRANS

 

 

 

 

 

09/071917

 

DIED

 

 

 

 

 

 

13/07/1917

 

 

 

 

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

Name

Lt. A.E. Stanner

Captain L.B. Walker

Lt. H.W.L. Preston

2/Lt. G. Joy

Lt. W. Pentland

2/Lt. F.G. Oakey

Lt. A.B. Cohen

Injury/

Condition,

if known

GSW Arm, Compound Fracture

GSW Back, Fracture Spine

Enteric fever

Multiple Wounds

Not Known

GSW Leg & Back

GSW Head & Hand

IDEIESMO

17/06/1917

 

23/06/1917

27/06/1917

 

18/07/1917

 

TIFEVISIT (1)

24/06/1917

23/06/1917

28/06/1917

08/07/1917

 

 

18/07/1917

IDEEPAW (1)

09/07/1917

 

 

 

29/06/1917

 

 

IDEISABATE

14/08/1917

 

14/07/1917

 

05/08/1917

05/08/1917

 

TIFEVISIT (2)

05/08/1917

 

 

 

 

 

 

IDEEPAW (2)

01/10/1917

 

 

 

 

 

 

IDEENTRANS

10/10/1917

 

 

 

 

 

 

DIED

 

01/07/1917

 

16/07/1917

 

 

22/07/1917

 

 

 

 

22

23

24

25

26

27

Name

Sub Lt. G. Smith

2/Lt. A.D.W. Ward

2/Lt. G. Greaves

2/Lt. R. Dickinson

Lt. A.L. Anderson

2/Lt. W.H. Wilkie

Injury/

Condition,

if known

GSW Knee Joint Fracture

Diptheria

Not known

Multiple GSWs Amputation Thigh

GSW L. Thigh

Gangrene

GSW Thigh Fracture

IDEIESMO

 

 

 

29/07/1917

 

 

TIFEVISIT

19/07/1917

22/07/1917

23/07/1917

02/08/1917

01/08/1917

03/08/1917

IDEEPAW (1)

27/09/1917

 

21/08/1917

23/08/1917

23/08/1917

27/09/1917

IDEEPAW (2)

 

 

23/08/1917

 

 

 

IDEISABATE

 

 

 

25/08/1917

25/08/1917

01/10/1917

DIED

 

23/07/1917

 

 

 

 

Transcript of Extracts from 2 British Red Cross Hospital.pdf

Edited by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy
To include in the tabel IDEENLAND for Bellamy on 14/04/1917 etc.
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Here is the remainder of the table referred to in the OP:

 

28

29

30

31

32

33

34

35

Name

2/Lt. T.A. Skinner

2/Lt. C.G. Edwards

2/Lt. A.G. Toogood

2/Lt. A. Pearson

2/Lt. G. Hindson

Col. O. Herbert Stepney

2/Lt. C. Lebas

2/Lt. W.F. Jelley

Injury/

Condition,

if known

 

Multiple Bomb Wounds

Appendicitis

Pneumonia

Multiple Wounds

GSWs Chest

GSWs Face, Hand & Legs

GSW Head & Thigh Fracture Femur

IDEENLAND

 

 

 

 

 

 

21/08/1917

 

IDEIESMO

 

 

 

09/08/1917

 

 

 

 

TIFEVISIT (1)

03/08/1917

05/08/1917

07/08/1917

 

11/08/1917

18/08/1917

27/08/1917

21/08/1917

TIFEVISIT (2)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

19/10/1917

IDEEPAW (1)

 

01/09/1917

23/08/1917

 

27/09/1917

26/09/1917

12/11/1917

 

IDEEPAW (2)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

IDEISABATE

 

06/09/1917

27/08/1917

21/08/1917

01/10/1917

27/09/1917

 

 

IDEENTRANS

 

 

 

 

 

 

15/11/1917

 

DIED

10/08/1917

 

 

 

 

 

 

02/11/1917

 

 

 

36

37

38

39

40

41

42

Name

2/Lt. A.W. Peters

Lt. F. Hugo

2/Lt. G.N.D. Sinclair

2/Lt G.H. Haigh

Major J.W. Coe

Lt. J.A.L. Johnstone

Lt. C.S. Pike

Injury/

Condition,

if known

GSWs Knee, Leg & Hand

GSW Leg

GSW Buttock

GSW Foot

Fracture Spine

Multiple Fractures, Jaw & Tibia

GSW Elbow & Thigh

IDEENLAND

 

23/06/1917

 

 

 

 

 

IDEIESMO

 

 

 

 

 

16/09/1917

19/09/1917

TIFEVISIT (1)

27/08/1917

 

01/09/1917

05/09/1917

15/09/1917

 

 

TIFEVISIT (2)

 

 

 

 

09/10/1917

 

 

IDEEPAW (1)

26/09/1917

01/09/1917

27/09/1917

23/09/1917

 

 

 

IDEEPAW (2)

 

 

01/10/1917

 

 

 

 

IDEISABATE

01/10/1917

09/09/1917

07/10/1917

24/09/1917

 

21/10/1917

 

IDEENTRANS

 

 

 

 

 

 

10/10/1917

DIED

 

 

 

 

21/10/1917

 

 

 

 

 

43

44

45

46

47

48

49

Name

2/Lt. W.R. Slater

2 Lt. W.A. Evans

Lt. B.B. Mcleod

2/Lt. S.L. Marshall

2/Lt. A. Whatmough

Lt. C.S. Fisher

2/Lt. J.S. Shillingford

Injury/

Condition,

if known

GSW Head trephined

Multiple Wounds, Fracture Pelvis

GSW Arm & Back, Fracture Humerus

Multiple Wounds, Amputation R. Leg

GSW Knee

GSW Arm Amputation

GSW Elbow & Arm Amputation

IDEIESMO

19/09/1917

19/09/1917

19/09/1917

22/09/1917

22/09/1917

23/09/1917

23/09/1917

TIFEVISIT

21/09/1917

 

 

 

24/09/1917

 

 

IDEEPAW

10/10/1917

 

 

 

28/11/1917

 

 

IDEISABATE (1)

 

01/10/1917

01/10/1917

27/09/1917

 

01/10/1917

 

IDEISABATE (2)

 

 

 

01/10/1917

 

 

 

IDEENTRANS

 

 

 

 

29/11/1917

 

10/10/1917

 

 

 

50

51

52

53

54

55

       56

Name

2/Lt A.A. Greensill

2/Lt. H. Bell

Lt. E. Parfitt

Major J.B. Metcalfe

2/Lt. J. Burman

2/Lt F.H. Lennard

Capt. M. Parr

Injury/

Condition,

if known

GSW Abdomen & Thigh

GSW  Head Lacerated Brain

GSW Thorax

GSWs Legs

Multiple Wounds

GSWs Head, Arm, & Thigh

Multiple Wounds

IDEIESMO

 

 

26/09/1917

27/09/1917

27/09/1917

 

 

TIFEVISIT

23/09/1917

25/09/1917

 

 

 

28/09/1917

29/09/1917

IDEEPAW

28/10/1917

 

 

01/10/1917

 

31/10/1917

07/11/1917

IDEISABATE

 

 

21/10/1917

 

20/11/1917

01/11/1917

12/11/1917

IDEENTRANS

 

 

 

10/10/1917

 

 

 

DIED

 

17/10/1917

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

57

58

59

60

61

62

63

Name

Lt. W.F. Grierson

2/Lt. H. Dandy

Capt. G.A. Turner

2/Lt. M.J. Scott

2/Lt. R.H. Peckston

2/Lt J.H. Hough

2/Lt. L. Terry

Injury/

Condition,

if known

GSW Chest, Pneumonia

GSW Leg

Multiple Wounds

GSW Ear & Thigh

Purpura Lymphatic Leukaemia

GSW s Legs Fracture Femur Amputation

Cellulitis nose

IDEENLAND

 

 

 

07/10/1917

 

 

 

IDEIESMO

 

 

 

 

09/10/1917

 

10/10/1917

TIFEVISIT (1)

05/10/1917

07/10/1917

07/10/1917

 

 

10/10/1917

11/10/1917

TIFEVISIT (2)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

IDEEPAW

31/10/1917

21/10/1917

28/10/1917

07/11/1917

 

28/10/1917

 

IDEISABATE

01/11/1917

02/12/1917

12/11/1917

20/11/1917

 

07/11/1917

 

IDELJACK

 

 

 

 

10/10/1917

 

 

DIED

 

 

 

 

 

 

16/10/1917

 

 

 

64

65

66

67

68

69

70

71

Name

Lt. Col. H.M. Stephenson

Capt. E.J. Griffen

Lt. R.N. Mcdonald

Lt. R.F. Aveline

Lt. Col. A.G. Pratt

Capt. E.C. Jervis

2/Lt. G. Classey

Capt. P.P. Harrison

Injury/

Condition,

if known

GSW Leg & Face Amputation Right Foot

GSW Thigh Fracture Femur

GSW Arm Fracture Humerus & other wounds

GSW Thigh Fracture Femur

GSW Shoulders,

Fracture Scapula

Multiple Wounds

Amputation Leg

GSW Shoulder & Jaw Fracture Scapula

Multiple Wounds

IDEIESMO

10/10/1917

11/10/1917

11/10/1917

11/10/1917

11/10/1917

11/10/1917

11/10/1917

 

TIFEVISIT (1)

11/10/1917

 

 

19/10/1917

 

17/10/1917

 

12/10/1917

TIFEVISIT (2)

17/10/1917

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

IDEEPAW

20/11/1917

 

 

07/11/1917

 

07/11/1917

 

 

IDEISABATE

24/12/1917

07/11/1917

07/11/1917

 

17/10/1917

26/12/1917

07/11/1917

 

IDEENTRANS

 

 

 

29/11/1917

 

 

 

 

DIED

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

20/10/1917

 

 

 

72

73

74

75

76

77

78

Name

Lt. A. Percival

2/Lt S. Bennett

2/Lt. G.P. Gibson

Lt. C.D. Harkness

Lt. C.C.G. Allen

Lt. Col. G.J.S. Taylor

2/Lt. R.W. Murray

Injury/

Condition,

if known

GSW Thigh, Fracture Femur Amputation

GSW Arm & Hip

Multiple Wounds

GSW Thigh & Back

GSW Back (Pen) Meningitis ? Fracture Spine

Appendicitis

Pneumonia

IDEENLAND

 

 

 

14/10/1917

 

 

 

IDEIESMO

 

 

14/10/1917

 

 

17/10/1917

17/10/1917

TIFEVISIT (1)

14/10/1917

14/10/1917

 

20/11/1917

15/10/1917

 

 

TIFEVISIT (2)

 

21/10/1917

 

 

 

 

 

IDEEPAW

 

24/12/1917

 

18/03/1918

 

 

 

IDEISABATE

 

26/12/1917

28/10/1917

25/03/1918

 

28/10/1917

28/10/1917

DIED

15/10/1917

 

 

 

20/10/1917

 

 

 

 

 

79

80

81

82

83

84

85

Name

2/Lt. D.A. Williams

Lt. R.C. Siller

Lt. S.E.K. Marshall

Lt. H.D. Buddle

Lt. L.L. Summers

2/Lt. W.E Coats

Capt. E. Talbot Bowe

Injury/

Condition,

if known

Gassed Shell Complication Pneumonia

Multiple Wounds

Empyema - Resection

GSW Chest

GSW Skull Fracture

Bomb Wounds Brain & Chest

GSW Buttock

Gas Gangrene Abdomen

GSWs Chest penetrating, Arm & Temple

IDEIESMO

19/10/1917

21/10/1917

21/10/1917

21/10/1917

 

30/10/1917

30/10/1917

TIFEVISIT (1)

 

26/10/1917

09/11/1917

 

 

30/10/1917

 

TIFEVISIT (2)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

IDEEPAW

 

12/11/1917

14/01/1918

 

 

 

 

IDEISABATE

07/11/1917

 

20/01/1918

07/11/1917

 

 

 

IDEENTRANS

 

15/11/1917

 

 

 

 

 

IDEENLAND

 

 

 

 

29/10/1917

 

31/10/1917

DIED

 

 

 

 

12/11/1917

04/11/1917

01/11/1917

 

 

 

86

87

88

89

90

91

92

Name

2/Lt. W.E. Rice

2/Lt. J.R. Payne

Lt. G.W.W. Denman-Dean

2/Lt. R.K. Smith

Lt. W.G. Garrett

2/Lt. W. Carr

Lt. C. W. Clarke

Injury/

Condition,

if known

GSWs Legs & Arm

GSW Leg Amputation Gas Gangrene

GSW Leg Fracture Tibia, Gas Gangrene

GSW Leg Amputation

Multiple Wounds

GSW Abdomen & Knee

GSW Leg Fracture Femur

IDEIESMO

30/10/1917

30/10/1917

30/10/1917

30/10/1917

30/10/1917

30/10/1917

31/10/1917

TIFEVISIT (1)

31/10/1917

01/11/1917

01/11/1917

01/11/1917

 

 

 

TIFEVISIT (2)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

IDEEPAW

28/11/1917

 

 

 

 

 

 

IDEISABATE

 

 

 

 

 

12/11/1917

24/12/1917

IDEENTRANS

 

 

 

10/12/1917

 

 

 

IDEENLAND

 

 

 

 

08/11/1917

 

 

DIED

 

04/11/1917

07/11/1917

 

09/11/1917

 

 

Edited by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy
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I just found an order by the DDMS Boulogne base dated 11/9/1917.

It is an order regarding the reporting of deaths to the WO. The WO report back to the DDMS and state that dates of deaths are frequently omitted and that the codeword IDEISABATE is being used alongside 'died'. The order says that the codeword IDEISABATE is not to be sent.

I thought for a moment that IDEISABATE was code for died and therefore the key and code were being sent in one message!

Not particularly clear what it does mean but it's something other than died and is sent to the WO.

TEW

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23 hours ago, TEW said:

t is an order regarding the reporting of deaths to the WO. The WO report back to the DDMS and state that dates of deaths are frequently omitted and that the codeword IDEISABATE is being used alongside 'died'. The order says that the codeword IDEISABATE is not to be sent.

Thank you, Tew, very interesting.

Is the order to the effect that the codeword IDEISABATE is not to be sent at all, or that it is not to be used in the same message as one reporting a death? The latter would make perfect sense if IDEISABATE means, in effect, "out of danger", as it would be terrible for someone whose loved one had died to be told that they were out of danger, and, conversely, for someone whose loved one was out of danger to be told that they had died.

It occurs to me that (provided that the instruction in September 1917 was not that the word "IDEISABATE" was never to be used at all) that all the codewords may refer to communications by telegram, rather than, as I was thinking in my first post, IDEIESMO, IDEEPAW, and IDEISABATE being internal progress reports for the benefit of hospital staff. It might well be that all the words, with the possible exception of IDEENLAND, were code words sent by 2 BRC to the WO in London, so that the WO could pass important news on to relatives, or other people who might need to know, such as hospitals in the UK who were going to receive seriously ill patients.

If that is right, TIFEVISIT would be an invitation, or recommendation, to relatives to visit, IDEENTRANS, IDEENRENG and IDELJACK could still be something to do with seriously ill patients being transferred across the Channel, while IDEIESMO, IDEEPAW, and IDEISABATE could still indicate very seriously ill, improving, and out of danger respectively, but my guesses for the actual meaning would be slightly different, maybe:

IDEIESMO: In danger of expiry, initiating emergency support by MOs

IDEEPAW: in danger of expiry ending, patient admitted to ward

IDEISABATE: in danger of expiry is abated

Tew, where did you find the order by the DDMS Boulogne base? I am wondering whether there might be a relevant order in February 1917 when it seems that, if the 2 British Red Cross diary is anything to go by, at least, these code words first began to be used?

As for IDEENLAND, I have noticed that not only is this almost always the first reference to a patient, but, in my table, the word IDEIESMO is almost never used to refer to a man whom IDEENLAND is used to refer to. The only two exceptions to this in my table are the two cases where IDEENLAND is not the first reference, but, instead, IDEIESMO is, i.e. in Columns 85 and 90. I am wondering whether IDEENLAND means that a telegram had been received from another hospital on the Continent notifying 2 BRC of the transfer to them of a man who already had the status of IDEIESMO at the other hospital; if so, perhaps in the cases of the men referred to in Columns 85 and 90 the IDEENLAND telegram might have been dleayed, in the former case by one day, in the latter by nine days - or is the latter too long a delay to support this explanation? Odd things did sometimes happen, however; for example, the 2 BRC WD has two entries reporting the arrival of Lt. E.A. Dowler dead on No 15 Ambulance Train, one on 2 June 1918, and the other nearly two weeks later on 15 June 1918. 

More relevant to IDEENLAND, there are two entries for 2/Lt. J.E. Lundie on 29/03/1917, the first recording his death, and the second being IDEENLAND. It is hard to see what entry it would have been thought relevant to make after a man had died, but the arrival of a telegram supposed to precede his arrival might be one such candidate.

I'm not sure whether it's material or not, but I have noticed that a high number of IDEENLAND men seem to be Australian, New Zealand, or Canadian troops. In my table, of the nine men whom IDEENLAND is used to refer to, three are AIF, two are Canterbury New Zealand, and one is Canadian Field Artillery. Six out of nine not being from the UK is a far higher proportion than if you looked at all the 92 men in the table. The other three of the nine are two RFA and one 188 Labour Corps. Could it be that in the case of the six non-UK men, at least, they might have been sent originally to another hospital where there was a higher concentration of troops from the Antipodes and Canada, but that they then had to be transferred on to 2 BRC because of the serious nature of their injuries? My grandfather was initially admitted to the No 3 Canadian Hospital at Doullens when he broke his ankle in July 1918, maybe only because of the location of his accident, but he was then transferred on to No 2 BRC, thankfully not in his case at least because he was in any danger, but maybe because 2 BRC was the more natural destination for UK officers?

 

 

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I'll add a snapshot of the relevant order. Personally I think it means that Death Reports were being sent to the WO using IDEISABATE and 'died' which was conflicting information. IDEISABATE was not to be used on Death Reports so IDEISABATE is nothing to do with deaths?

From your tables I can't see any instances of IDEISABATE that died.

The order refers to IDEISABATE as a codeword, I'm not so sure they are acronyms that actually stand for anything although the use of LAND, ABATE, TRANS, VISIT & SMO (senior medical officer?) probably doesn't make them a particularly devious code. A code is necessary as the reports were being telegraphed which might be intercepted giving the enemy details of the numbers being returned to the UK etc.

I've looked for 469/17 dated 8/2/17 and not found it. Nothing similar at all for Feb 1917.

ddms.jpg.04613280d536c545c48f5ab77b5261f8.jpg   

 

The DDMS Boulogne is constantly reminding Hospitals regarding the multitude of army forms needed to keep tabs on total numbers in hospital, those sick or wounded, severely wounded, infectious diseases, vacant beds, transfers to other hospitals, bases, convalescent depots, returns to the UK.

It now seems that these codes were being used in Rouen and by the DDMS Boulogne so it's not specfic to 2 BRC. I suspect each hospital (all bases?) sent in reports to the DDMS who then transmitted the reports to the WO.

Quote

I'm not sure whether it's material or not, but I have noticed that a high number of IDEENLAND men seem to be Australian, New Zealand, or Canadian troops. In my table, of the nine men whom IDEENLAND is used to refer to, three are AIF, two are Canterbury New Zealand, and one is Canadian Field Artillery. Six out of nine not being from the UK is a far higher proportion than if you looked at all the 92 men in the table. The other three of the nine are two RFA and one 188 Labour Corps. Could it be that in the case of the six non-UK men, at least, they might have been sent originally to another hospital where there was a higher concentration of troops from the Antipodes and Canada, but that they then had to be transferred on to 2 BRC because of the serious nature of their injuries? My grandfather was initially admitted to the No 3 Canadian Hospital at Doullens when he broke his ankle in July 1918, maybe only because of the location of his accident, but he was then transferred on to No 2 BRC, thankfully not in his case at least because he was in any danger, but maybe because 2 BRC was the more natural destination for UK officers?

 

As it happens I noticed a few orders for Boulogne that adds weight to the above. I've added two snapshots regarding NZ troops but I saw others for Canadians & Newfoundlanders where they were if possible to be admitted to a specific base hospital, embarked to a specific UK port and for the Newfoundlanders, had a UK hospital set aside. In that respect total numbers and sick/wounded ratio would be vital to make sure a hospital ship was designated solely for Newfoundlanders and the numbers tallied with the available bed space in the UK.

ddms2.jpg.554a37823071888a1083f87c2b17529c.jpg

ddms3.jpg.2c5a08477c4a8faf1a069ea0ab26b4cf.jpg

 

I'm now wondering if any of the Boulogne base hospitals use these codes although they could be just as valid for convalescent camps.

TEW

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6 hours ago, TEW said:

I'll add a snapshot of the relevant order.

Thank you for the snapshot Tew. It is interesting that the order refers to an earlier order dated 8 February 1917, which would tally with the first use of the codes by 2 BRC.

You are right that none of the men who are entered in my table as having died had previously had the code IDEISABATE applied to them, which is one of the reasons why I thought it must mean "completely out of danger" or similar.

If at least one of the purposes of the codes was to enable DDMS to keep tabs on what facilities they had available where for looking after seriously ill men etc., perhaps some understood the main message being conveyed by IDEISABATE as being that a man no longer needed any special attention, which would be equally true whether a man got better or died, and this may have led to both died and IDEISABATE being applied to the same man, or possibly IDEISABATE being used instead of the word died,, thus leading to possible confusion.

I'm not sure that intercepting the telegrams would have given very reliable information about numbers of men being moved back and forth even if codes were not used, as it is clear that the codes were not applied to all the men going through the hospital, only the more seriously ill ones, but maybe the codes were introduced for brevity and standardisation?  

Thank you also for your insight into the special treatment afforded to New Zealand/Canadian/Newfoundland troops.

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9 hours ago, DavidOwen said:

I wonder if the answers might be included here? https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6642434

Hi David,

When I first saw your post and followed the link I was very excited, and also thought it very timely as I am booked in to visit Kew next week, and have until midnight tonight to tinker with the list of files that I have requested. However, if I request the document I will have to boot something else out of my existing list, so I am now hesitating, having noted that the description of MT23 is: This series contains files (the majority dating from 1866) of the Transport Department of the Admiralty, dealing with the transport by sea of all military forces and their supplies, and the organization of the transport service. The series includes a few files of the Ministry of Shipping.

I see that the title to MT23 is Admiralty, Transport Department: Correspondence and Papers, and that the immediate source of acquisition was from the Ministry of Transport in 1967.

The document to which you have provided a link dates from 1915, so a bit earlier than the date when these codes were first adopted by 2 BRC. Also, the BRC codes can't in my view exclusively relate to the transport of men in Hospital Ships, though IDEENTRANS, IDEENRENG and IDELJACK may.

All in all I am now pessimistic that the document will contain the whole answer, and, as it may have no relevance at all to any of the codes used in the 2 BRC WD, I am reluctant to boot anything off my current list, as everything else that I have requested definitely has some relevance to things or people I am interested in. 

If, from your greater knowledge of how these papers are organised - or maybe not organised! - you think that a document from 1915 entitled "Hospital Ships Economic code for messages" is more likely than not to contain the answer to the BRC conundrum I could be persuaded to change my mind (up to 11.59pm tonight!). Otherwise, maybe another time ... This is in fact my first visit to Kew, so there may well be more.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion.

Tricia 

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Having read the confirmation of booking from the NA, I now see that I can request further documents while I am actually at Kew, so I will ask for MT 23/460/8 when I arrive, and hopefully will be able to tell fairly quickly whether it is likely to help or not. I will report back.

Meanwhile, some further thoughts on IDIERCAT:

I have found four IDIERCAT entries in the 2 BRC WD between February 1917 and June 1918:

02/05/1917 Lt. J.H. Barnes 46 AIF GSW Leg, Amputation, died 08/05/1917

10/07/1917 Lt. C.S. Hincks 10/AIF GSW Chest and Leg, IDEEPAW 23/08/1917. IDEISABATE 27/09/1917

10/02/1918 Capt. J.G. Matheson Bomb Wounds Abdomen, died 19/04/1918

03/05/1918 Lt. J Bonnily 52 AIF GSW Knee and Right Hip, died 04/05/1918

As can be seen, three out of the four died, while Lt. Hincks took 2 1/2 months to attain IDEISABATE status.

Could it be that the RCAT in the code indicates that the man in question was Roman Catholics, and that a telegram was sent to appeal for a Catholic priest to administer the last rites owing to the seriousness of the injuries? I would have thought, however, that there would be enough Roman Catholics in the British army to make it advisable for any hospital to have a Catholic priest in-house without having to telegraph for one to be provided in an emergency?

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I am now reporting (if anyone is interested!) on my visit to the NA relative to the above The file highlighted by @DavidOwen a couple of posts ago, MT 23/460/8, formerly T.57248/15, entitled "Hospital Ships. Economic code for messages" , proved to be a brief exchange about whether they should use code or plain text for orders to, or about, Hospital Ships. The decision was that they should use plain text, the most senior man in the discussion observing that, although the codes were not confidential, the Germans might think that they were, and they didn't want to risk upsetting the Germans. Reading between the lines, it looks to me as though they had an arrangement that the Germans would not attack Hospital Ships if they knew where they were, but that it was feared that they might do so if they thought that something clandestine was going on involving, or purporting to involve, Hospital Ships. So quite an interesting diversion, but no help with regard to the 2BRC WD.

Meanwhile, I also came across, in one of the officer's files I was looking at, that of 2nd Lieutenant W.L. Briggs, a telegram notifying the War Office of his death, a copy of which is attached, from which it is clear that the sender of that telegram, at that point in time (14/09/1917), considered it desirable to state separately, and in the same sentence, both the fact that 2nd Lieutenant Briggs had been removed from the dangerously ill list, and that he had died, which fits in with what @TEW found that the DDMS Boulogne reported to be happening in its order of 11/09/1917, and the instruction from the War Office that IDEISABATE should not be used in addition to the word "died" when reporting a death.

454569051_IMG_2215-Copy.jpg.3159647f74e56a9c354b89380334e561.jpg

 

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Always interesting to see a follow up. Can I ask what led you to Briggs' service file, I assume he has no IDE***** code anywhere?

Battalion diary had him wounded 6th Sept, 24 GH have nothing and Etaples base simply report his death. Casualty List reports DOW on daily list of 22nd Sept.

I'm also wondering if your Office of Origin - Etaples MO is the telegraphic address for the DDMS or another department with a Medical Officer. I only bring this up as some base diaries were kept by a SMO - Senior Medical Officer rather than an ADMS/DDMS.

TEW

 

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The reason I was looking at 2nd Lieutenant W.L. Briggs was nothing to do with the BRC Codes, but because he was a fellow officer with my grandfather in the summer of 1917 in “C” Coy of the 1/5th LF. In his diary my grandfather states that he died in the attack on Borry, Beck House and Iberian Farms on 6 September 1917, but I now realise that he died a few days later of wounds received in that engagement, He was admitted to No.24 General Hospital at Etaples, and his mother received what I would now describe as a TIFEVISIT telegram. I attach a copy, courtesy of the National Archives, and am interested to note that the Government offered to pay travelling expenses for the visit, but only if the family could not afford to fund travel themselves.

On the death of 2nd Lieutenant Briggs another telegram followed, withdrawing the invitation to visit. Again a copy is attached. I can’t throw any light on the description of the Office of Origin being described as “Etaples MO” I’m afraid, unless perhaps the Hospital MO was being named as the originator of the telegram?

1661280650_IMG_2216-Copy.jpg.988d35248680391a744d30c9107d19bd.jpg382481642_IMG_2217-Copy.jpg.d53626e48f845b9c49b7f12acb4b91d2.jpg

Edited by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy
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  • 2 weeks later...

Regarding the following:

    while IDEEPAW and IDEISABATE are both applied to Lt. E.H. Tattersall, 5th Dragoon Guards on 6 April 1918

Tattersall was dangerously wounded on 10 March 1918, suffering gunshot wounds to both legs.  He survived the war but had his left leg amputated prior to 7 April 1918.

Edited by barney5042
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15 hours ago, barney5042 said:

Tattersall was dangerously wounded on 10 March 1918, suffering gunshot wounds to both legs.  He survived the war but had his left leg amputated prior to 7 April 1918.

That certainly fits with what is in the 2 BRC WD about Tattersall. I haven't been able to find an IDEIESMO entry for him. As far as I can see the first entry for him is TIFEVISIT on 20 March 1918, where the entry is "Lt. E.H. Tattersall 5/D. Gds GSW Legs Amputation Left Leg", so the amputation took place prior to that date.

The only unusual thing about the entries for Tattersall is that IDEISABATE should happen on the same day as IDEEPAW, rather than there being at least two or three days' gap, as in most cases. But perhaps the IDEEPAW entry had been delayed for some reason.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks to another forum member I've found an example of IDEENLAND within a service file complete with a translation of it's meaning!

IDEENLAND = Dangerously ill.

The fact that IDEENLAND has been translated for us into 'Dangerously ill' does mean these are conditions telegraphed in code. I've looked at a few others and seen quite a few coded telegrams from and to various offices. This is the first with one of the required codes.

The lead to the service record comes from a Sick & Wounded list for #700 Bastow NFLD Regt. reported as on DANGEROUSLY ILL list.

LF2.png.76ce9364b720895e7eb79ed32b5ed70d.png

 

Move to his service record and there is a telegram from 'Synoptical' (a War Office Dept., seen on quite a few telegrams so far) to Governor St. Johns.

Service Record.pdf

LF1.png.f3350370344e2b8d3f6034f4f34b45bc.png

I think in this case he may well have been on a Dangerously ill list in June 1916, possibly removed from that list, transferred to the UK and placed on another Dangerously ill list 11th Oct 1916, he died the following day.

As the Canadian, Newfoundland, Australian etc. service records are free online and include far more than UK records there is a good chance more of these de-coded telegrams will be found.

TEW

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On 22/11/2021 at 13:44, TEW said:

Thanks to another forum member I've found an example of IDEENLAND within a service file complete with a translation of it's meaning!

IDEENLAND = Dangerously ill.

Thanks, Tew, it’s really good to see something referred to as a translation, and it certainly makes sense for IDEENLAND to mean “dangerously ill”. I can’t help feeling, however, that more men would have been designated “dangerously ill” in the period that I have researched than just those who have the word IDEENLAND attached to them, and IDEIESMO is an obvious candidate for also meaning “dangerously ill”. If that is right, what the distinction between the two was, if anything, is lost to us at the moment.

It is interesting that the example of IDEENLAND that you have found is in a Newfoundland record, i.e. from what were then termed "the Colonies", which is in line with the greater use of this word for Colonial troops mentioned above.

It did occur to me that a search of Canadian and/or Australian records might throw some light on the code words, and that I should look at some of these, but I have only had time to look at one record so far, that of Lieutenant Lionel Logan Summers M.C., of the 11th Infantry Battalion AIF, who was marked as IDEENLAND on 29 October 1917 and died on 12 November 1917. I append copies of two pages from his records, courtesy of the Australian National Archives.  From these one can see that the sad personal story of this man was that he had only just recovered from a serious brain injury suffered in May 1917, returning to the front in late September 1917, when he suffered a serious accidental bombing injury to the head and chest in Belgium on 19 October 1917. Neither his English sister, nor his Australian wife (whom the sister had never met, and whom she refers to as a “stranger”) were able to elicit any further information regarding the accident, though they both wrote separately to the War Office seeking to do so.

Following the accident, Lieutenant Summers was initially admitted to No 2 Canadian CCS before being transferred by Ambulance train to No 2 BRC, where he was admitted on 29 October 1917, the day on which he was marked as IDEENLAND in the 2 BRC WD. On the attached handwritten sheet he is designated as “dangerously ill” on that day. 

One other thought that has occurred to me from the exchanges in the posts above is that these code words may have been part of a government scheme of telegraphic code evolved in, or shortly before, 1917, and adopted by at least the BRC in February 1917. A search of the National Archives records using the key words “government telegraph code” produced 26 hits, of which the first, BT13/80 looks as if it might be worth investigating. The full title to this document is Government Telegraph Code - Alterations etc., and its date is 1917. The source of the document is the Board of Trade, and the subjects covered by the document are said to be “Communications/Trade and Commerce”, so no obvious connection with hospitals, but possibly the ambit of the document might have been broad enough to include hospitals if communications generally did not obviously belong to any other department at the time? Needless to say, the document is not digitized, and unfortunately I won’t be returning to Kew in the near future, so that is as far as I can take it at the moment.

I will look at a few more digitized Canadian and Australian files and post any relevant findings here.

869117098_L.L.Summers0001.jpg.8845c1febc1b59d03f9bf4c62d415cda.jpg

1524623061_L.L.Summers0002.jpg.7037f674b11aaf57e7743937572612f2.jpg

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I don't know if you've been watching the Casualty List topic?

These are various types of lists sent either by telegram or sometimes by post to 'Proclias' the WO dept who dealt with casualties. Proclias then copies and sends them onto the various Record Offices.

For the Newfoundland Contingent their Record Office in London is 'Synoptial'. It's a shame only to find IDEENLAND being used with a trans-atlantic telegram to the NF Governor. Seems to me to reduce the value of using codes at all.

Anyway, the Casualty Lists sometimes indicates a man's present state. Dangerously, Severely or Seriously ill/wounded. Changed from seriously to dangerously etc. 'Dangerously ill, may be visited' is another variant.

Some examples.

093B5766-04A4-4A83-9550-D51C26B110D0.jpe

004F36A1-43CB-46FE-910D-15B1A0F9BE02.jpe

Many more in the topic

Could be worth targeting the various 'Colonials'.

TEW

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