Any Machine Gun Corps Experts?

[Jack2020]

Hello,

I was wondering if there were any Machine Gun Corps experts out there who could possibly interpret any further information from the images below. Apologises for the Camera phone quality as I didn't have access to a scanner. 

It is from the great resource Forget me not: the Blackrod men who gave their lives in the First World War created by Blackrod Community Group. 

 

I'd dare say it is Motor Machine Gun Corps by the badge under the two MGs but that is solely based on googling cap badges. 

Were there any variations?

It is apparently John Owen but from what I've seen he is recorded as MGC Infantry. 

Any help would be amazing.

[FROGSMILE]

Can you see on the original photo (use a magnifier if you have one) whether that 3-letters on the bottom of the cap badge are MMG or RND?

MMG = Motor Machine Gun Service - set up in 1915 by the Royal Artillery (as nucleus) to create a mobile machine gun force largely mounted on motorcycle combinations, but also with a view to other modes of mobility.  The MMG were absorbed by the Machine Gun Corps after it was formed in 1916.

RND = Royal Naval Division - Machine gun companies (later combined as a battalion) in support of the 63rd (Royal Naval) Division, initially formed from surplus naval reservists.

NB.  The Spurs that he wears along with the riding whip he carries suggest the MMG to be more likely.  He’s also wearing the emergency simplified pattern jacket (no pleats on upper pockets) issued early in the war.  Both spurs and riding whip were typically inherited from artillery dress culture, as also is a whitened lanyard, although that doesn’t mean that he was ever an artilleryman himself.

Edited 30 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

MMGS to my eyes. The spurs are odd for a man mounted on a motorcycle combination though. I reckon he was most likely playing dress-up for the photograph.      Pete.

[David Kinsella]

A quick look at MIC of John Owen in the CWGC  link (157975 Pte. John Owen Machine Gun Corps (Infantry)) shows he'd at one time been Pte. 203642 John Owen, Loyal North Lancashire Regiment, if that helps.

                                               regards D.

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

MMGS to my eyes. The spurs are odd for a man mounted on a motorcycle combination though. I reckon he was most likely playing dress-up for the photograph.      Pete.

They took pride in being ranked as ‘Gunners’ in the MMGS rather than Private’s, Pete.  I think that when they could they liked to emulate the artillery style associated with their origins.

3 hours ago, David Kinsella said:

A quick look at MIC of John Owen in the CWGC  link (157975 Pte. John Owen Machine Gun Corps (Infantry)) shows he'd at one time been Pte. 203642 John Owen, Loyal North Lancashire Regiment, if that helps.

                                               regards D.

That’s useful David, it backs up the MGC Infantry category that he later (post MMGS) filled.

Edited 30 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[david murdoch]

With the badge being MMG lettered, has to be MMGS (or just possibly Army Service Corps serving with an Motor Machine Gun Battery) Would also date the photo to 1915 as the badge was discontinued by MGC. However he's not wearing Motor Machine Guns shoulder patches which would show up clearly in this photo.  Seeing the pension card for 157975 Pte. John Owen has address and widow in Blackrod matching the CWGC entry. His medal roll is clearly MGC(I) and all the men up and down from him appear to be infantry men transferring to MGC(I) plus he's in a group coming from Loyal North Lancashire Regiment. His soldiers effects may calculate when he first enlisted and his MGC number can be dated to when he transferred to them. This John Owen also does not have a 15 Star so his Medal Index Card is inferring the went to France with Loyal North Lancashire Regiment probably sometime  in 1916. For him to have been MMGS in 1915 he'd need to have had an MGC number below about 2600. It would then be unusual to say the least for him then to transfer out of MMGS then go to France with an infantry regiment  Very few men transferred out of MMGS/MGC(Motors) - only large group were moved sideways to Heavy Branch then Tank Corps. A handful went to MGC(I) or other regiments/branches but usually because they had been commissioned. I don't have a John Owen (MMGS) in my data with a number indicating serving with them in 1915. Going by his CWGC burial record it states he died in Bangour War Hospital, which is  near Broxburn, West Lothian. On account of this he has a Scottish death certificate - trying to make out his cause of death!

 157975 Pte. John Owen MGC is certainly the local casualty for Blackrod, but not at all sure the photograph is him.

Edited 5 October , 2021 by david murdoch

[FROGSMILE]

33 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

With the badge being MMG lettered, has to be MMGS (or just possibly Army Service Corps serving with an Motor Machine Gun Battery) Would also date the photo to 1915 s the badge was discontinued by MGC. However he's not wearing Motor Machine Guns shoulder patches which would show up clearly in this photo.  Seeing the pension card for 157975 Pte. John Owen has address and widow in Blackrod matching the CWGC entry. His medal roll is clearly MGC(I) and all the men up and down from him appear to be infantry men transferring to MGC(I) plus he's in a group coming from Loyal North Lancashire Regiment. His soldiers effects may calculate when he first enlisted and his MGC number can be dated to when he transferred to them. This John Owen also does not have a 15 Star so his Medal Index Card is inferring the went to France with Loyal North Lancashire Regiment probably sometime  in 1916. For him to have been MMGS in 1915 he'd need to have had an MGC number below about 2600. It would then be unusual to say the least for him then to transfer out of MMGS then go to France with an infantry regiment  Very few men transferred out of MMGS/MGC(Motors) - only large group were moved sideways to Heavy Branch then Tank Corps. A handful went to MGC(I) or other regiments/branches but usually because they had been commissioned. I don't have a John Owen (MMGS) in my data with a number indicating serving with them in 1915. Going by his CWGC burial record it states he died in Bangour War Hospital, which is  near Broxburn, West Lothian. On account of this he has a Scottish death certificate - trying to make out his cause of death!

 157975 Pte. John Owen MGC is certainly the local casualty for Blackrod, but not at all sure the photograph is him.

It sounds as if they got the names mixed up in connection with subject photo and that it’s actually someone else.

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

It sounds as if they got the names mixed up in connection with subject photo and that it’s actually someone else.

Yes 157975 John Owen is certainly their local casualty, but I'd be surprised if that is him in the photo - I'd like to know who it really is!

[trooper23]

11 hours ago, david murdoch said:

With the badge being MMG lettered, has to be MMGS (or just possibly Army Service Corps serving with an Motor Machine Gun Battery) Would also date the photo to 1915 as the badge was discontinued by MGC. However he's not wearing Motor Machine Guns shoulder patches which would show up clearly in this photo.  Seeing the pension card for 157975 Pte. John Owen has address and widow in Blackrod matching the CWGC entry. His medal roll is clearly MGC(I) and all the men up and down from him appear to be infantry men transferring to MGC(I) plus he's in a group coming from Loyal North Lancashire Regiment. His soldiers effects may calculate when he first enlisted and his MGC number can be dated to when he transferred to them. This John Owen also does not have a 15 Star so his Medal Index Card is inferring the went to France with Loyal North Lancashire Regiment probably sometime  in 1916. For him to have been MMGS in 1915 he'd need to have had an MGC number below about 2600. It would then be unusual to say the least for him then to transfer out of MMGS then go to France with an infantry regiment  Very few men transferred out of MMGS/MGC(Motors) - only large group were moved sideways to Heavy Branch then Tank Corps. A handful went to MGC(I) or other regiments/branches but usually because they had been commissioned. I don't have a John Owen (MMGS) in my data with a number indicating serving with them in 1915. Going by his CWGC burial record it states he died in Bangour War Hospital, which is  near Broxburn, West Lothian. On account of this he has a Scottish death certificate - trying to make out his cause of death!

 157975 Pte. John Owen MGC is certainly the local casualty for Blackrod, but not at all sure the photograph is him.

I read

:Acute

Nephritis

Heart

Disease

( Ventricular)

Then illegible

[Bardess]

47 minutes ago, trooper23 said:

( Ventricular)

Valvular

47 minutes ago, trooper23 said:

Then illegible

As cert by [Drs name - poss G R Williamson]

[pjwmacro]

19 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Yes 157975 John Owen is certainly their local casualty, but I'd be surprised if that is him in the photo - I'd like to know who it really is!

Agreed - does the Blackrod Community Group give any source for the photo? What makes them think it's John Owen.

[david murdoch]

14 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Agreed - does the Blackrod Community Group give any source for the photo? What makes them think it's John Owen.

The photo Jack 2020 posted appears to be in a book published by the group - you can just see what looks to be details/bio on the opposite page. However there must be something - either the source or something written on the back of the photograph to suggest this was  John Owen (157975). Would need to contact or have some input from someone involved in putting the book together. The book was published in November 2015, and linked to research regarding Blackrod WW1 casualties and additional names being added to the Blackrod war memorial.

Also seeing this thread regarding Lancashire headstones, and where John Owen (and his dying in hospital in Scotland is mentioned), as he's also been researched in regards  Bangour Hospital.

Just now looking at his background. He got married in Blackrod 1st January 1916 - and going by marriage registration  does not mention an army unit - implying he was still a civilian at that time, which makes it even less likely that he was ever linked to the MMGS. In addition he appears on the British Jewrey Roll of Honour under his Loyal North Lancs number 203642 which notes him as being 10th Battalion.

Bit of digging on the Loyal North Lancs Medal roll shows up  203641 was a Private James Halliwell also from Blackrod and also 10th Battalion (later 9th) He was discharged with Silver War Badge due to wounds. In turn that record shows  him enlisting (or conscripted) 10/1/1917.  203663 Pte William Ince  1/4th Battalion also has a Silver War Badge and also enlistment date of  10/1/1917 so it's almost certain John Owen's first enlistment was on this day also.

 

[trooper23]

On 05/10/2021 at 12:31, Bardess said:

Valvular

As cert by [Drs name - poss G R Williamson]

Thanks Bardess

I agree

I put Ventricular in brackets as I was unsure

[alf mcm]

  I was interested to read that John was mentioned in the British Jewry Book of Honour. His gravestone doesn't have the Star of David on it. https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/39370515/j-owen  Findagrave also shows the same photo at the start of this thread.

Regards,

Alf McM

[david murdoch]

10 hours ago, alf mcm said:

  I was interested to read that John was mentioned in the British Jewry Book of Honour. His gravestone doesn't have the Star of David on it. https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/39370515/j-owen  Findagrave also shows the same photo at the start of this thread.

Regards,

Alf McM

Strange one  - it only came up as I was doing a filter search with his Loyal North Lancs  service number. He got married in the local parish church! I saw the Find a Grave entry for him. The photo there looks like it's possibly another photo of the page in the book. The lady that posted it has added to several memorials in the area. I'm active on Find a Grave so can contact them. It's fairly recent, but maybe just taking the book info at face value.

[alf mcm]

David,

  John's sister, Elizabeth Clevely Owen was also married in the Blackrod Parish Church, in 1910.

  His brother James served with the 1st Lancashire Fusiliers. He died on 11th June 1916, and is buried in Auchonvillers Military Cemetery. I don't know if he is on the Blackrod site. He's not in the British Jewry Book of Honour.

Regards,

Alf McM

Edited 14 October , 2021 by alf mcm
Additonal info added