Hospitals in Flanders.

[david bush]

Hoping someone can shed some light on this.

My grandfather was Gassed in Sept 1917, near Ypres. ( some records say 10.9 others 9.10, but I have the war office weekly casualty list from sept 18th, so I am sure its the 10.9) I can see he went to the 11th casualty clearing station, utilising the 64th field ambulance, He was admitted to Catterick Military Hospital on 29th Dec 1917. I am hoping to understand where he might have been between September and the December. 

 

He suffered badly all his life with damaged lungs from the gassing so I assume he didn't go back to the front in between. 

 

Any thoughts greatly appreciated

 

David

[alf mcm]

David,

  Can you give us his name and number?

Regards,

Alf McM

[david bush]

Hi Alf, its Roger Briar Bush RFA 63504 Ive exerted all the online portal I think. But I very much appreciate your help. 

 

David

[alf mcm]

David,

   He was discharged from from 11 CCS on 9/10/17 to 15 Ambulance Train.  https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=S2%2FGBM%2FMH106%2FMH106-481%2F0026&parentid=GBM%2FMH106%2FP2%2F104773

  15 AT war diary available here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/6ec889731d8f45b39209d79933a1c819

Regards,

Alf McM

Edited 30 September , 2021 by alf mcm

[david bush]

Hi Alf

 

Thank you, so an "Ambulance train" was that just for transport or might he have stayed there until he was sent to Carrick Hospital in the UK in December of that year?

 

Again Im very grateful for your help

David

 

 

 

 

[alf mcm]

It would have taken him to another hospital, probably near the coast, or direct to a Hospital Ship, which would have taken him to England. The war diary will show where the AT went. Diary is free to download if you register {see yellow bar at top of TNA page}.

Regards,

Alf McM

[david bush]

Thank you so much 

[alf mcm]

David,

  This document on Findmypast shows that Richard served with 85 Brigade H.Q., R.F.A. He was discharged from 7 Convalescent Depot to 3 Large Rest Camp, Boulogne on 5^th November 1916. He was suffering from Quinceys, apparently a rare and potentially serious complication of tonsillitis.   https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F007382470%2F00685&parentid=GBM%2FWO363-4%2FSUPP%2F405542

  He had clearly been in hospital in 1916, as well as 1917.

Regards,

Alf McM

Edited 30 September , 2021 by alf mcm
Reference to hospital ship deleted.

[TEW]

6 hours ago, david bush said:

Hoping someone can shed some light on this.

My grandfather was Gassed in Sept 1917, near Ypres. ( some records say 10.9 others 9.10, but I have the war office weekly casualty list from sept 18th, so I am sure its the 10.9)

Snipped the quote for brevity.

Small detail but as he is in the published Casualty List of 18/9/1917 the actual injury/wound would be about a month earlier. 8 days from injury to publishing is highly unlikely.

TEW

[seaJane]

15 hours ago, alf mcm said:

Quinceys

Actually quinsy - I think your autocorrect may be to blame... (I used to know a rather good restaurant called Quincey's).

[david bush]

13 hours ago, TEW said:

Snipped the quote for brevity.

Small detail but as he is in the published Casualty List of 18/9/1917 the actual injury/wound would be about a month earlier. 8 days from injury to publishing is highly unlikely.

TEW

Thanks, but I have copies of both actual records in this instance, so it seems that was the case. 

[alf mcm]

6 hours ago, seaJane said:

Actually quinsy - I think your autocorrect may be to blame... (I used to know a rather good restaurant called Quincey's).

You are correct SJ. I should have made it clearer that I was quoting what was on the actual record.

Regards,

Alf McM

[david bush]

22 hours ago, alf mcm said:

David,

  This document on Findmypast shows that Richard served with 85 Brigade H.Q., R.F.A. He was discharged from 7 Convalescent Depot to 3 Large Rest Camp, Boulogne on 5^th November 1916. He was suffering from Quinceys, apparently a rare and potentially serious complication of tonsillitis.   https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F007382470%2F00685&parentid=GBM%2FWO363-4%2FSUPP%2F405542

  He had clearly been in hospital in 1916, as well as 1917.

Regards,

Alf McM

Hi Alf,

 

Sorry to keep bugging  you but would you know what the 85th Brigade head quarters was or did? His service record says he was a gunner?

 

David

[alf mcm]

1 hour ago, david bush said:

Hi Alf,

 

Sorry to keep bugging  you but would you know what the 85th Brigade head quarters was or did? His service record says he was a gunner?

 

David

David,

   In the Artillery 'Gunner' was the equivalent of 'Private' in the infantry. Not all Gunners actually manned the guns. Some would be employed as, for example cooks, clerks, storemen, batmen [Officers servants] etc.  Each Royal Field Artillery Brigade comprised 3 Batteries of guns or howitzers, and Headquarters, which would include the men mentioned above. 

  The war diary for 85 Brigade R.F.A. is here;-   https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352963

There is only a very slight chance that Roger is mentioned by name, but it will show where the Brigade was located.

Regards,

Alf McM

[seaJane]

3 hours ago, alf mcm said:

quoting what was on the actual record.

Fair enough!

[TEW]

Has your original query of I am hoping to understand where he might have been between September and the December  been refined into where he was between 9/10/17 on leaving 11 CCS by 15 AT and arriving at Catterick 29/12/17?

I may be able to fill in some details of this later period.

I hear what you say regarding what records you have so far and their dates but I still have a slight niggle about some time frames. On face value it looks as if he was in 11 CCS for about a month. They are 'Clearing' stations supposedly clearing wounded back to better medical care. A one month stay is only viable if someone is so badly wounded they were not likely to survive the journey. Not much treatment for gas inhalation other than oxygen so the treatment was easily available on any earlier ambulance train to get him to a base hospital. I'm not seeing the logic of keeping him for a month.

The MH106/481 record on FMP shows the discharge from 11 CCS to 15 AT. The way these books are structured is normally to show the discharge against the man's admission entry.

This book only covers 6/10/17-9/10/17 so that would have to cover his admission to 11 CCS surely? 64 Field Ambulance certainly didn't keep him for a month.

I concede that the above makes little sense taking on board the casualty list date of 18/9/1917 and the injury 10/9/1917. Hence the niggle!!

TEW

[TEW]

I had a look at 15 AT diary which shows their destination as Etaples.

Etaples base diary doesn't help much but the train arrived 11.30 AM 10/10/1917.

I can't see any Hospital ships departing Etaples and I think the port is not big enough. This explains why there's a constant stream of patients being loaded onto other ATs bound for Havre, Calais & Trouville.

A few stats: 10/10/1917. 7 different ambulance trains arrived Etaples bringing 3257 wounded. 4 ATs departed Etaples with 1598 patients bound for Havre, Calais & Trouville.

This pattern is repeated everyday with varying numbers.

He may have been in one of the ~6 hospitals in Etaples for most of the time then moved to Havre or Calais for transport to UK. Or, moved to either location on the 10/10/17 until late December.

Assuming his arrival in Catterick marks his arrival in the UK (no guarantee of that) you can backtrack to show that the voyage Havre/Calais to Southampton/Dover is a few hours plus a train to Catterick, he could arrive in the UK and be in Catterick the same day.

Between Havre & Calais there are about 6 hospital ships leaving each day with ~400 patients each journey.

Possible of course he went direct to Havre/Calais from Etaples 10/10/17 and home via Hospital Ship later the same day. In which case he must have had another UK hospital prior to Catterick.

TEW

[david bush]

On 01/10/2021 at 16:29, alf mcm said:

David,

   In the Artillery 'Gunner' was the equivalent of 'Private' in the infantry. Not all Gunners actually manned the guns. Some would be employed as, for example cooks, clerks, storemen, batmen [Officers servants] etc.  Each Royal Field Artillery Brigade comprised 3 Batteries of guns or howitzers, and Headquarters, which would include the men mentioned above. 

  The war diary for 85 Brigade R.F.A. is here;-   https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352963

There is only a very slight chance that Roger is mentioned by name, but it will show where the Brigade was located.

Regards,

Alf McM

Hi Alf, One more question only I promise. If you were a Gunner, would they swap around at all? I mean sometimes on the guns, sometimes a signaller or store man or other jobs  you mentioned? Or if you were actually on the guns you just stayed with that Job?

Your help is so helpful. Really appreciate this. 

[David26]

Hello David,

After the war most of the day to day papers that had been generated in such profusion were destroyed as being of no great continued use. Fortunately for us, some samples of some of them were retained and this includes a number of patient records such as the one Alf found for you related to your grandfather's move from 11CCS onto 15AT.

A number of patient record summaries were also kept including for Catterick, though unfortunately your grandfather's is not amongst them (i).  But what they, in combination with men's surviving service records, do show is that on the day a soldier arrived back in the UK he would be taken to a hospital and admitted there the same day. These might often be large general hospitals dotted round the country, with seemingly some attempt made to send a man to vaguely the same part of the country he came from. 

At that hospital he would usually get his main treatment and after a few weeks or months might be sent to a smaller hospital, such as the many Voluntary Aid Detachment ones which had sprung up, to help him recuperate. For an artilleryman, when he was ready to leave hospital, he usually got a few days' leave before having to report to Catterick where he would stay for - hopefully - final recuperation and a restoration of his fitness. If that happened, he would be 'discharged to draft', i.e. he was got ready to be sent back to the Front and would be sent to whichever artillery unit neded him most.

So, I would suggest that having been sent by 15AT to Etaples, he probably only stayed there for a short time before crossing the channel on a hospital ship and being taken to hospital. His arrival at Catterick on 29 Dec 1917 will very most likely have followed a few weeks in hospital and hopefully a few days leave over Christmas at home.

(i) If you go onto TNA's website and look for example for  'MH106 Catterick Bush' you'll get 6 results and the content of the files has been helpfully summarised by TNA and they give a flavour of the evacuation and treatment route.

David.

[Ron Clifton]

9 hours ago, david bush said:

Hi Alf, One more question only I promise. If you were a Gunner, would they swap around at all? I mean sometimes on the guns, sometimes a signaller or store man or other jobs  you mentioned? Or if you were actually on the guns you just stayed with that Job?

Your help is so helpful. Really appreciate this. 

Hello David

Signallers, range-takers and the like were normally specialist jobs, so there would not have been much swapping between them and the men actually handling the guns (although there would have been some occasional moves). Storemen remained at the base depots. Men manning the guns would have to develop teamwork and an ability to do more than one of the gun-handling jobs (usually six per gun plus three reserves).

Ron