One Frederick Smith non-comm or two?

[PRC]

Top of my list to investigate is a Frederick Robert Smith, who according to his headstone in Norwich cemetery was a 'late' Lance Corporal 7th Norfolks who died on June 17 1917 aged 35. The death of a 35 year old Frederick R. Smith is recorded in the Norwich District in the April to June quarter of 1917.

Obviously a post discharge death, my first port of call was to crawl through the Silver War Badge Roll. There I found a Lance-Corporal 12243 Frederick Smith - who did serve with the 7th Battalion and on investigation of the civil records turned out to be a Frederick Robert.

But according to the attestation, this Norwich man was born 29th September 1885, (a helpful clerk went through a period of adding dates of birth alongside ages on attestations late August \ early September 1914). After service in France he was sent home in October 1915 diagnosed with V.D.H., a condition for which he was discharged on the 14th December 1915 at the age of 30. However on the pension sheets in his service record there is then this note:-

(Image courtesy FindMyPast).

If he died on the 29th November 1917 then we have a different individual. However there is no death of a 32 year old Frederick \ Frederick Robert Smith recorded in England & Wales in either the October to November quarter of 1917 or the January to March quarter of 1918. There are a couple of deaths of Frederick Smith's aged 33 - one in Greenwich Q4 1917 and one in Dudley Q1 1918.

While there were similarities between the two men and even the discrepancies like age are not irreconcilable, the stumbling block remains that date of death.

The soldier had what appears to be a very, very estranged wife, but did eventually admit he was married and a separation allowance was paid. I'm assuming a widows pension was paid.

So my first question on this one is - is there anything in the pension ledger records for 12243 Frederick Smith to suggest a date of death earlier than the 29th November 1917.

Thanks,
Peter

[ss002d6252]

12243 Smith claimed a pension on discharge

https://www.fold3.com/image/703902484?terms=12243,smith

The 50790/D reference would tell, from my records of numbers, that he was discharged in Dec 1915.


https://www.fold3.com/image/691504930?terms=12243,smith

The card doesn't give a date of death but it does show that the widow's case reference was previously 775.

Case 773 was issued to a man who died June 1917 so a June/July 1917 death for 12243 would be expected.

Craig

[George Rayner]

There is a Soldier's Effects entry in Fold3

Hope that helps

George

 

[PRC]

Thank you Craig, thank you George - very much appreciated

I was in two minds as to whether to book a slot at the County Archive and see if I could find anything in the local newspapers in the week after the two dates of death, or take a chance on the death certificate for the man who died aged 35 in Q2 1917 and hope that either place of death \ name or address of informant tied in with the information in the service record.

The nagging doubt was always there that while the chance of there being two Frederick Robert Smith's who made it to Lance Corporal in the 7th Norfolks and was then discharged early might seem very small, it wasn't entirely impossible.

Will send for the death certificate now with a lot more confidence - next hurdle will be the cause of death shown there and relating that back to the V.D.H. and fits that caused him to be discharged.

Cheers,
Peter

[George Rayner]

No reference to him in FMP Newspapers. I realise that is a limited sample...

 

George

[PRC]

1 hour ago, George Rayner said:

No reference to him in FMP Newspapers. I realise that is a limited sample...

None of the main Norwich based newspapers for the Great War era are online yet as far as I'm aware - it was supposed to be coming as part of FindMyPasts partnership with the Norfolk Library service but that was well before the pandemic. I've looked at the Norwich Mercury in the past for both June 1917 and November 1917, but I was then only looking for stories with an upfront military angle. If the death of Frederick kicked off a coroners inquest but no mention of military service, (or it was illegible - quality of the scans is average to very poor) - then I wouldn't have made a note of it.  I've looked at the Eastern Daily Press from the start of July to mid-October 1917 and the Norfolk Chronicle from mid-July to mid October 1917 so would have been heading to the County Archive to check those titles out for June and November 1917.

Still impressed that you thought to check out the Register of Soldiers Effects - given how long he'd been discharged that would never have occurred to me

Cheers,
Peter

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

 

Still impressed that you thought to check out the Register of Soldiers Effects - given how long he'd been discharged that would never have occurred to me

It should always be the case that a death before the end of 1918 shows in the effects as they had to retrospectively apply the war gratuity to those already deceased after discharge.

Craig

[PRC]

On 23/09/2021 at 18:51, ss002d6252 said:

It should always be the case that a death before the end of 1918 shows in the effects as they had to retrospectively apply the war gratuity to those already deceased after discharge.

Thanks Craig - now you put it like that makes perfect sense. Didn't make the connection before and  assumed when I stumbled on the odd one is was due to some other reason.

Every day a schoolday

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 6 October , 2021 by PRC
Typo

[PRC]

is there a doctor or @Terry Denham in the house :-)

This man was diagnosed with VDH in October 1915 while in France and was medically evacuated to the UK. He was discharged on the 14th December 1915.

Image courtesy of FindMyPast.

He passed away on the 17th June 1917. Cause of death is shown on the death certificate as Phthisis Pulmonalis. The certifying doctor does not state how long he had been diagnosed.

So the question is could tuberculosis manifest itself as VDH? There is nothing in the surviving service record to say if he was ever tested for TB as a possible cause of his symptoms.

Or am I batting on a losing wicket trying to get this one accepted as a non-comm.

Cheers,
Peter

[PaulC78]

I don't see this case going forward as it stands. It's a shame when the cause of death doesn't match the disability, but you can't win them all.

[Bardess]

@Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Can you assist?

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

VDH is an all encompassing term for cardiac disorders involving mechanical abnormalities of the valves and can be sometimes a bit of a vague diagnosis.

But not here.

The service record is quite specific here that he had mitral regurgitation, and equally specific that it started after an episode of 'Acute Rheumatism' (probably acute rheumatic fever), when he was 25, with a deterioration of his symptoms of shortness of breath and palpitations following an acute excacerbation that started 12th October 1915 at Loos.

Oh that all medical records were so specific!

The downside is that there is no real link to the cause of death as stated on the death certificate, Phthisis Pulmonalis (Pulmonary TB). We can question of course the accuracy of the cause of death, but for now must accept that as fact.
I thought there was a recent change of interpretation by the CWGC along the lines that TB deaths in discharged ex-servicemen were deemed to be due to active service, but I can't remember the specifics.

The underlying fact is that here we have a Great War soldier who served overseas, who was discharged due to ill health caused or aggravated by active service, and is dead (albeit from a different disease) within 18 months, well before the conflict is over.

Has @Terry Denham seen his case yet?

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

VDH is an all encompassing term for cardiac disorders involving mechanical abnormalities of the valves and can be sometimes a bit of a vague diagnosis.

But not here.

Thanks, much appreciated.

As a lay person, the internet tells me the tuberculosis bacilli can also infect other major organs, including the heart. So the question I have is would a tuberculosis infection of the lungs always manifest itself first before the infection spread to other organs and produced symptoms?

My point would be that while in this case the VDH diagnosis come with additional detail to support it, by concentrating on those elements it may be the Army doctor, rather than the doctor on the death certificate, who for want of a better word, "mis-diagnosed".

However playing devils advocate, Frederick Smith was also a Master Butcher and from what I can find out about the family business was probably a slaughterman. My understanding was that TB was a bit of an occupational hazard. Additionally while he was estranged from his wife as far as I can tell, (although present at his death), she lived in an area of the city built on reclaimed marshland full of overcrowded two up, two down terrace houses where outbreaks of contagious diseases appears to have been a regular feature. From memory I believe it was the last area of the city to suffer an outbreak of cholera. TB would most likely have been endemic. I'm assuming the 19 months between discharge and death would have been more than enough for him to have contracted the illness and given his already weakened state to have succumbed to it.

Cheers,
Peter

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

11 minutes ago, PRC said:

I'm assuming the 19 months between discharge and death would have been more than enough for him to have contracted the illness and given his already weakened state to have succumbed to it.

Yes  it could.

We'll  never know (...probably).

Edited 15 October , 2021 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[PRC]

Well unless anyone has any bright ideas, I think this one has run it's course. No prima facie evidence to link cause of discharge, (VDH) with cause of death, (Phthisis Pulmonalis).

I will put something on Flickr alongside a picture of his headstone to try and ensure his service is not entirely forgotten.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 22 October , 2021 by PRC
Typo