An interesting "P 1907" Bayonet.

[4thGordons]

I just got this - fully aware of what I was getting. I have literally just unwrapped this (the bubble wrap is at my feet) and I have not oiled it or done anything to it (although I suspect it will actually clean up quite nicely with a wipe over of oil)

I believe I know what it is but I would like the opinion of the experts.

Decent shape- brownish colour on the leather of the scabbard and very dry - unblued locket and chape. No markings at all on the leather or the metal components of the scabbard. Frog button circular but significantly smaller than standard circular button

 

Mounts very well on a standard ShtLE

This photo also shows the clearance hole which is markedly larger than standard (but not beveled like a Vickers)

Blade is bright polished (not chromed) and speckled with dry rust and without markings.

It is also totally unmarked and under close magnification shows no signs of ever having had any marking at all - some polishing/tool marks are visible and fuller lines etc are rounded.

You can also see there is a marked step on the ricasso (both sides) and that the fuller is a slightly different shape. When compared to a 1917 Wilkinson P1907 (just what I had handy - not a great example) there are several differences, the ricaasso, in blade profile (noticeably thinner towards the point esp the spine of the blade) and the mounting slot

Wilkinson P1907 (1917) on right - note profile of ricasso

 

Close up of points/spine of blade

 

You may also have noticed that the slot is noticeably longer than usual (but fit on a couple of rifles is good and it locks in place well)

Wilkinson bayonet on right.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

Edited 27 August , 2021 by 4thGordons

[peregrinvs]

Possibly a stupid suggestion… but is there such a thing as ‘Khyber Pass copy’ bayonets?

[Dave66]

Interesting,

Similar but so many differences…I would assume commercial but no retailer stamps!, so possibly ersatz!?

thanks for posting.

Dave.

[shippingsteel]

Hi Chris, definitely a non spec copy of the P1907 bayonet, and one which I believe to be an Afghan production or "Khyber Pass" version.

There are a number of similarities in the blade, grips shape and locking slot to a bayonet shown on the Old Smithy reference page for the P1907 listed under Afghanistan.

http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/HTNL DOCUMNETS/1907_pattern_bayonets.htm

And knowing a little of your collecting interests and having seen some of your collection I suspect that is exactly why you purchased it.! 😆

Cheers, SS 

[4thGordons]

19 hours ago, peregrinvs said:

Possibly a stupid suggestion… but is there such a thing as ‘Khyber Pass copy’ bayonets?

Yes I think there are - however the copies/fakes are usually smothered with spurious stamps but I definitely think this is from that general area

 

3 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Hi Chris, definitely a non spec copy of the P1907 bayonet, and one which I believe to be an Afghan production or "Khyber Pass" version.

There are a number of similarities in the blade, grips shape and locking slot to a bayonet shown on the Old Smithy reference page for the P1907 listed under Afghanistan.

http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/HTNL DOCUMNETS/1907_pattern_bayonets.htm

And knowing a little of your collecting interests and having seen some of your collection I suspect that is exactly why you purchased it.! 😆

Cheers, SS 

Guilty as charged m'lud. (although I think my example is actually better made and less crude than the one shown on the link)

I don't know for a fact that it is Afghan and I am not sure how I might prove it, but I am pretty sure it is but I think actually made for use rather than as a copy.

I have several examples of weapons that were shipped directly to me from friends who were serving in Afghanistan (particularly in the early days) and extreme dry/dustiness and speckled surface rust (even the smell of the leather actually!) seems common to them. 

Thanks for thoughts

Chris

[AndyBsk]

Similar items were made in Pakistan or Afganistan, both countries used british equipment, so this are mostly serving pieces but wout any marking. More real as a indian or chinese reproductions.

[4thGordons]

7 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

Similar items were made in Pakistan or Afganistan, both countries used british equipment, so this are mostly serving pieces but wout any marking. More real as a indian or chinese reproductions.

Hi Andy - thanks. Yes that was my thoughts too - just confirmation on your meaning in the last part When you say  "More real as a indian or chinese reproduction"

Are you saying (and this is certainly my view) that this is more "real" (as in a bayonet made for use in Afghanistan/Pakistan)  THAN contemporary copies of a P1907  made in China or India for sale to reenactors/collectors or whomever. That was how I read what you were saying but I just wanted to clarify (and I agree!)

Of course there are plenty of 100% genuine P1907s and derivatives made officially in India but I am aware of the cheap/nasty copies currently being produced(esp of Hooked Quillon versions)

Chris

[AndyBsk]

You understand my bad english excellent. I assume the recess on handle near crossguard is added as smaller hands of the soldiers there? Secondly the shape of locking nut is smaller and rounded as easier to made as with that excenter on P07. Interestingly would be the tempering of blade, how it would widerstand a thorough bend test? interesting is the locking lug is certainly shorter into adapter slot as not visible on last picture, press button is too smaller diameter so the inner spring should be too smaller as by P07. Blade was well preserved by Scabbard.From the natural rust on handle i assume it could be middle of 20 century production?

Edited 29 August , 2021 by AndyBsk

[navydoc16]

@4thGordons the pics seem to have disappeared from this, any chance you still have them? I’m trying to work on something that sounds similar to this thread.

 

kind regards 

g

[4thGordons]

Based on the numbers - these are the missing images - they were still stored in "my attachments" so I am not sure why they would be missing from the thread but here they are:

[navydoc16]

@4thGordons I have three “Afghans” here in my collection, I just wondering if they were similar, I’ll have a look at mine when I get home. They are at least a “pattern” Afghan rather than a “kyber pass” deal.

mine definitely have different rivets similar to the ‘88, but the grips just reminded me of mine as well as that oval catch recess.
 

I will get all three out when I get home, see if we can’t get the bottom of this. 

kind regards

g

 

Edited 6 May by navydoc16

[navydoc16]

@4thGordons dug these out as promised (to be fair they were already out for @JMB1943 weigh in)

Showing awfully similar details as yours. Show next to a Chrome WSC which is already a chunky bayonet

Edited 6 May by navydoc16

[navydoc16]

Hindsight is 20-20 and I probably shouldn’t have chosen a Chromed bayonet- but it’s late and I’m stupid 

[navydoc16]

- Showing that same “Oval” catch shape

“triangle” transition clearly defined on the side of the pommel leading edge to the grip.

- “flat” at the bottom of the grip leading to the cross guard 

obviously my grip fasteners are different and your blades leading edge ends far further up the bayonet,  but your bayonet looks very similar in a lot of the other respects. 

I believe we can even see the same construction, on the tang, two of mine show the weld where I’m guessing they hand fitted these to make them fit a nose cap, one of mine is welded and filed flat, two are open- yours appears to show a distinct region where it was welded and filed in the same way. 

^my humble

kind regards

g

 

 

Edited 8 May by navydoc16