Edward Guest # P/127302

[Heatherm]

Greetings again from New Zealand

Edward GUEST is another British soldier in our Pukekohe cemetery and is proving very difficult to research. His headstone plaque says WW1 and WW2, so can someone enlighten me as to whether this is a WW1 or WW2 service number or did men have the same number for both wars?

Any information on this man will be gratefully received as I have only found him on the New Zealand electoral rolls for 1969 and 1972 and know he died on 18 August 1974 aged 75 (born about 1899) he was an accountant and his wife was Marjorie Lathham GUEST (surname unknown).

This is his plaque.

Many thanks 

Heather

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, Heatherm said:

Greetings again from New Zealand

Edward GUEST is another British soldier in our Pukekohe cemetery and is proving very difficult to research. His headstone plaque says WW1 and WW2, so can someone enlighten me as to whether this is a WW1 or WW2 service number or did men have the same number for both wars?

Hi again Heather,

In WW1 officers did not have numbers.  Service numbers were an inter-war introduction for them.

I'd hazard he upped a rank [or perhaps a few] to Captain for/in 'Round two'

Born c.1899 he would have been a late starter for 'Round one'

:-) M

Edit: Here's a 1941 London Gazette for him https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/35316/supplement/6096 ROYAL ARMY PAY CORPS. The undermentioned to be Lts. and Paymrs.: — ...15th Oct.. 1941: — ...War Subs. Lts.: — ... E. Guest (127302).

This 1940 LG is a bit more tasty https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/34858/supplement/3180 - ROYAL ARMY PAY CORPS ... The undermentioned to be 2nd Lts.:— ... 15th Apr. 1940:— Lt. Edward GUEST (137302), late H.L.I. [Note his number's second digit is different - potentially a typo I guess] - now got to look back even further in time!

Further edit: And thus I feel:  https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30531/supplement/2186  War Office, 18th February, 1918, TERRITORIAL FORCE. The undermentioned, from Officer Cadet Units, to be 2nd Lts.: — INFANTRY ... High. L.I. — ... Edward Guest   [Typically he would then have reached Lt. after about about 18 months service - unfortunately at the moment I can't see that post-war promotion or his relinquishment of commission or going to Reserve or ???]

Edited 20 August , 2021 by Matlock1418
Edit & Further edit

[Matlock1418]

I reckon this is quite likely to be his MIC [the clerk seems to have been a bit uncertain as to whether he had had an earlier rank and so had left a free line above] - post-31/12/1916 entry to a ToW = so a BWM & VM 'pair' [the Medal Roll for 2 Lt E Guest, HLI - Officers (Various Regiments) on Ancestry- does not show any more]

Image courtesy of Ancestry

With his year of birth/age I think it is probably rather unlikely that there was much h/s or any earlier o/s service.  But who knows?  Know you are wanting to know!

I'm now also wondering if he might perhaps have a retained service record / officers papers at the MoD - Including 'Round one' ??? - I feel almost certain they will have something for his later service and this probably/may include something from his earlier too [If he has any there they won't be easy to quickly get at though - certainly likely to be a long wait at the moment] https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records

Please note/advisory: Much discussion of 'Round two' / the 'Rematch' is considered by the Forum Rules to be a bit off-topic here at GWF so you could perhaps try WW2Talk  http://ww2talk.com for his later service.

Good luck here, for which I hope you find more [and likewise there for later!]

:-) M

 

Edited 20 August , 2021 by Matlock1418
addit

[Heatherm]

Thanks once again - I really appreciate your help and some direction on Edward as I can't even find a family for him. However the confirmation (or at least indication) that he was in Scotland has given me new leads.

 

kind regards

Heather

[Ivor Anderson]

The medal roll off Ancestry is interesting as all those around him got 1914-15 stars except him. They also began the war as privates and were commissioned:

Edward Guest made 2nd Lt. from O.C. Unit - LG 18 February 1918: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30531/supplement/2186

Father (also Edward Guest), Master Painter & Decorator, of 38 St. Vincent Cres., Glasgow (address on MIC) died 26 Feb. 1927. widow Isabella, nee McIntosh.

Edited 20 August , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[George Rayner]

A little more

Full Name: E Guest

Birth Date: 27 Feb 1899

Rank: Army Officers

Service Number: P127302

Reference Number: AOP000017089

Conflict Period: World War I

Served for: United Kingdom

from Fold3

George

 

 

 

[George Rayner]

FWR says

First Name:

E

Surname:

Guest

DOB:

1899-02-27

Information:

Block Allocation Type:OFFICER.

Further Information:

Account: 11001. Item Code: AOP000017089

Service Number:

P127302

Primary Unit:

British Army

Archive Reference:

surviving-wwi-service-records

Collection:

Service records index of those who served both in WWI and after 1921

Record Details for E Guest (forces-war-records.co.uk)

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

The medal roll off Ancestry is interesting as all those around him got 1914-15 stars except him. They also began the war as privates and were commissioned:

As commented - nothing more about him compared to his MIC, but interesting to look at his cadre

We do have to realise he was pretty young to have had much/any prior to Commission service - Hopefully he learnt much from older more experienced hands.

:-) M

[Ivor Anderson]

37 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

Birth Date: 27 Feb 1899

BC scan - 27.02.1899 - off ancestry: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/mediaui-viewer/tree/29300029/person/12472513690/media/a6254bd6-42da-4f83-8749-f2a084b6a90e?_phsrc=AHE14067&_phstart=successSource

From partial family tree: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/29300029/person/12472513690/facts

Married Greta Williamson 1921 in St. Andrews, Dundee, Scotland.

He ended up a long way from home. Why was he given a military style headstone when he died in 1974?

Edited 20 August , 2021 by Ivor Anderson
Additional information

[Heatherm]

Matlock, George & Ivor

You guys are amazing. Thank you so much for all of this information. I just could not get a lead on this man at all and you have given me enough for the base of a story.

Can't thank you enough,

 

kind regards

Heather

[clk]

Hi Heather,

9 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

I feel:  https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30531/supplement/2186  War Office, 18th February, 1918, TERRITORIAL FORCE. The undermentioned, from Officer Cadet Units, to be 2nd Lts.: — INFANTRY ... High. L.I. — ... Edward Guest

I see that is wef 30.1.1918

Image sourced from the London Gazette

That probably made him this 5th Battalion man in the Army List of May 1918

If so, from the Army List of December 1919 he still appears to have been with the Battalion, but risen to the rank of Lieutenant, effective 30.07.1919.

Images sourced from the National Library of Scotland

Regards
Chris

[Ivor Anderson]

Thanks Chris. He may get a mention in the 5th Bn. HLI WD in 1918 - here: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354841

[Heatherm]

Thanks Chris

Appreciate the interest and help.

 

regards

Heather

[Ivor Anderson]

He appears to have emigrated to NZ in 1964 aged 65? https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-653S-5WC?i=53&cc=1609792&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AKLBB-3PZ

Edited 20 August , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[Heatherm]

I have downloaded the war diaries (free at the moment, so that was a bonus) so will have some reading to do now.

Yes, I did find him on the passenger list - no wife with him and I haven't been able to find her arrival yet.

 

I think I need to co-opt you to out research team !!

 

regards

Heather

[Heatherm]

I have just worked out his cabin companion is in fact Marjorie Latham JONES, who appears in the NZ electoral roll as his wife in 1969 and I have now found a divorce from his wife Greta in 1968. 

Heather

 

[Ivor Anderson]

The plot thickens! They certainly headed far from home! He was living at 38 St. Vincent Crescent, Glasgow in 1911 aged 12.

His father and grandfather travelled about too. His father Edward was born in Quebec (1859) when his father was a soldier there. The family had moved to the Isle of Man by 1869 and Glasgow by 1874.

I still don't understand why was he given a military style headstone when he died in 1974?

Edited 20 August , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[Heatherm]

Thanks Ivor

All the men in our cemetery (and throughout New Zealand) who fought in WW1 were able to get this military style headstone and I think, their plot was free also, no matter when they died or what country they fought with. Families had to apply to get the headstone plaque and in earlier years wives were not able to be buried with their husbands so some families chose not to bury the man in the Returned Service section of cemeteries. They did change that rule about 1968.

For our book we are concentrating on the men who have something on their headstone identifying that they went to WW1. We do know of others buried in the main cemetery without anything to identify their war service so we are going to put them in another section of the book as we hear about them. There is really no way, without a huge lot of checking to tell who we might miss covering of those who do not have anything on their graves.

Our community and the families of the Servicemen, where we have been able to find them, are very supportive of our project.

The most recent death I think is a man who died in 1989 aged 89, who had put his age up to serve with the NZ Field Artillery.

regards

Heather

 

[Matlock1418]

17 hours ago, Heatherm said:

All the men in our cemetery (and throughout New Zealand) who fought in WW1 were able to get this military style headstone and I think, their plot was free also, no matter when they died or what country they fought with. Families had to apply to get the headstone plaque

I like it! = Represents service and not just sacrifice.

Is it possible that there are records surviving naming:

= Who made the application for a burial in the RSA plot?

= Who made the application for a plaque?

:-) M

Edited 21 August , 2021 by Matlock1418

[Heatherm]

No sadly no records of who made the application for the plaque although in some cases there is a notification of death to the Defence Department which obviously started the process. Not all of those records has the name of the person making the declaration though.

Our project is all about recognizing the service these men, and 1 woman, gave for the future of their countries and us.

[sadbrewer]

His father was involved in a Libel case in 1915.

 

[Heatherm]

Interesting - thanks.

[Heatherm]

Thanks to all who helped with information for this man. I have attached the story that will be included in the book we intend to publish with the stories of all the WW1 men buried in the Pukekohe Cemetery. (aiming for the end of the year but no fixed date as yet). It will be able free as an e book also.

If there are any changes you can suggest please feel free to comment.

GUEST Edward.pdf

[Tawhiri]

I suspect your Marjorie Latham Guest/Jones was born Marjorie Latham Hitchcock, her birth being registered in the second quarter of 1904 in Lewisham. She went on to marry Maurice Broadridge Jones on 1 May 1926 in the church of Holy Trinity, Tulse Hill, Lambeth. Maurice's occupation on marriage was given as surveyor, and he appears to have died in Chartham, Canterbury in April 1978. It would be interesting to know how Edward and Marjorie met.

[Heatherm]

Thanks for this information - she was born in April 1904, so this will be her.