Salient in the Snow

[John S]

Visited Ypres Salient last weekend and sampled battlefield visits in the snow and ice for the first time.

All very different to the spring and summer visits I’ve made in the past. It made everyone in the group think about how harsh the winters in the trenches could have been during 1914-18.

The cemeteries in Ploegsteert Wood were untrodden snow (at least when we arrived) and took on a special atmosphere.

While we were visiting the Caterpillar there was a large group of what I took to be local youths playing in the snow on Hill 60. A visiting British school party on the Hill were subject to snowball ‘attack’ by these youths and eventually responded in kind; soon a pitched snowball fight was in progress. The noise was such as to bring at least one local resident to the door to see what was going on.

I know they are only doing what all children do in the snow and didn't mean any disrespect but it made me feel very uncomfortable.

Perhaps I was wrong to deprive my young group but I couldn’t bring myself to let them onto the Hill in case they too became embroiled in a snowball fight.

John

[ianw]

I don't know John, a snow ball fight seems quite appropriate there. I think many of the lads who died in the real fighting at Hill 60 and still lie there would be cheering the youngsters on.

I understand your mixed feelings and would probably feel them myself in the same circumstances - also there is a difference in the attitudes to this in 2005 when compared to 1925 say.

[John S]

I don't know John, a snow ball fight seems quite appropriate there. I think many of the lads who died in the real fighting at Hill 60 and still lie there would be cheering the youngsters on.

My first reaction was on these lines but I thought the area was owned by the CWGC and was a considered a cemetery (as distinct from a battlefield site) because of the number of bodies still lying underground. Hence my feelings and decision.

John

[ianw]

I am not sure that Hill 60 is owned by the CWGC. I think it would be rather tidier if it were ! It obviously shares the melancholy distinction of having not been fully cleared of remains but is an open access sort of place rather than say an uncleared wood. As such I suppose it's status is a bit grey , but I dont think of it in the same way as a cemetery - although I agree that arguably I should.

This is a continuation of past discussions on whether it is proper to use cemeteries stone work as a background for wedding photos etc.

Rightly or wrongly I certainly feeled more relaxed about this sort of thing than I would 20 years ago. I think it is a matter for personal conscience. I certainly think you could throw a snowball at Hill 60 and subsequently then bow your head in respect there without feeling too much of a contradiction.

[paullaw1155]

I think it is a matter for personal conscience.  I certainly think you could throw a snowball at Hill 60 and subsequently then bow your head in respect there without feeling too much of a contradiction.

I agree with your sentiments ianw. I remember my first visit to the battlefield cemeteries and monuments I had some concern about what sort of clothing to wear that could be deemed as respectful. In the end I wore casual clothing and was relieved to see other visitors wore the same. Respect comes from within yourself. I remember a number of years ago when Michael Foot wore casual clothes at the cenotaph and was heartily slated for it, I did not agree with the adverse critism that was aimed at him at the time. I do not feel that I am out of touch with these sentiments.

Paul

[John S]

I am not sure that Hill 60 is owned by the CWGC. I think it would be rather tidier if it were ! 

My source of information was Holts, Guide to the Ypres Salient (P113) and Before Endevours Fade (P51) both state it is owned by CWGC.

As regards the reference to the Hill being a cemetery I cannot now recall where I first read that but Holts, The Western Front - North states "Hill 60 is a cemetery", but perhaps this is meant in a broader sense than I thought.

I agree with both ianw and Paul that things have changed over the years and have no problems with casual clothing etc and the changing face and use of the battlefield is inevitable.

Would still like to see standards of behaviour in cemeteries kept up hence my decision at what I believed (perhaps wrongly) was a cemetery.

Would be interested if any one can shed light on ownership and if Hill 60 is a cemetery as distinct from a battlefield which contains bodies.

John

[Max]

Hello John

I can certainly understand your concerns, but I don't really share them.

I am all for due respect being showed to war dead of all nationalities but I am sure that the men/boys who are now part of Hill 60 would be happy to know that their efforts were not in vane and that children of different nationalities are not now facing each other across their old battlefield with rifles and machine guns but with snowballs.

Andy

[Michael]

Who are we to determine what the soldiers who died would have thought ? Hill 60 is a cemetery and should be treated with respect. Whoever was in charge should have reminded them of that.

How would you feel if the same thing happened at Tyne Cot ?

[Bert Heyvaert]

By any chance John, would you be able to share some pictures with us of your snowy visit to the saliënt? Although I live here I haven't been able to go out into the countrysite to have a look at the winter scenery.

regards,

Bert.

[Tom Morgan]

I believe that Hill 60 was originally purchased after the war by the Queen Victoria's Rifles. Their (reconstructed) memorial is still on the top of the hill, of course. In later years the hill was handed over to the care of the CWGC. Because there are so many missing soldiers of both sides still buried on Hill 60 or in the many underground galleries, the decision was taken to leave the hill to nature, and this is why it looks as it does today.

Tom

[John S]

By any chance John, would you be able to share some pictures with us of your snowy visit to the saliënt? Although I live here I haven't been able to go out into the countrysite to have a look at the winter scenery.

regards,

Bert.

Bert

I will post some on another thread but I am not the best photographer in the world!!.

regards

John

[Jack Sheldon]

Things move on, whether we like it or not. Who would have though that the site of the first use of flamethrowers at Bellewaarde would beome a funfair?!

[ianw]

Well the ownership issue is now solved. However, is it a formally defined cemetery ? I suspect that the children concerned would not have engaged in their snowball fight in Tyne Cot whereas the constraining "signals" are mostly absent at Hill 60 - I think I recall there are notices requesting respect ?

Personally, I do think that we have a right (and possibly an obligation ?) to consider how the average man , now buried or lost on the Western Front), might have reacted to our actions today. I am sure the laughter of pretty girls visiting Tyne Cot would be approved of and perhaps the snow-ball fight as well. Of course, we need to respect other people's sensitivities but ultimately we have to regulate our own behaviour in accordance with our own beliefs.

Andy below is right to say that if you define Hill 60 as a cemetery then logic dictates that you extend this definition to the whole Salient.

[Max]

Who are we to determine what the soldiers who died would have thought ? Hill 60 is a cemetery and should be treated with respect.

Hill 60 is not a cemetery. It is a piece of ground where thousands of men died and where some still lay....as it is across the whole Slaient. Are you saying that children are not allowed to enjoy themselves anywhere in the area?

As to what the dead soldiers may or may not have thought I am sure that a large number of them were not pious to the point that they would not enjoy the sounds of young people enjoying themselves.

Andy

[Michael]

Whether its a cemetery or not, if you're there as a tourist you are well aware of what you're walking on.

My kids are taught respect for other people and self respect, its a shame that others aren't.

I ask again, if its alright for young people to enyoy themselves wherever they want, would this behaviour be acceptable in a formal place of remembrance? Or are the soldiers in Tyne Cot or on the Menin Gate more pious than those under Hill60 ?

[Max]

Whether its a cemetery or not, if you're there as a tourist you are well aware of what you're walking on.

?

My kids are taught respect for other people and self respect, its a shame that others aren't.

I find this very offensive as you seem to be insinuating that my 4 girls do not have any self respect or show respect to others. This could not be further from the truth. You make a judgement of my children without meeting them, quite an example for younger people to follow.

I ask again, if its alright for young people to enyoy themselves wherever they want, would this behaviour be acceptable in a formal place of remembrance?

The answer to your first question is of course, no, it isn't OK for children to enjoy themselves wherever they like, but Hill 60 is not a cemetery and the men who lay there are remembered either on the Menin Gate or Tyne Cot. To follow your argument to its natural conclusion children across the Salient should not allowed to act like children elsewhere as the missing lay all around them. If this is not the case, why is Hill 60 different to other locations in the salient?

Or are the soldiers in Tyne Cot or on the Menin Gate more pious than those under Hill60 ?

I have no idea if the dead soldiers of both sides who lay under Hill 60 are more pious than anywhere else, the question does not make any sense.

[griffy]

I'm with Max on this one. The whole Salient was a charnel house and there are no doubt the remains of thousands of bodies, both complete and incomplete in every field and wood.

No one is suggesting snowball fights should take place in formal cemeteries. However, personally I love the idea of kids having a snowball fight on Hill 60. The playful exuberance is a celebration of life and I’m sure that those buried below would be delighted to hear English childrens voices raised in excitemnt 90 odd years after they left for Belgium leaving their own children and brothers/sisters behind

Presumably those buried under Hill 60 are named and remembered at the Menin Gate, provided respect is shown there in the formal setting and structure of the evening ceremony, I think the obligation for respect and reflection has been accomplished.

griffy

[Martin Brown]

I can't speak for the group in question but after the usual round of cemeteries and tales of horror that make up most battlefield/cemetery tours on the Front I'm not really going to blame anyone for needing to release a bit of the tension with a few snowballs. It's also an entirely authentic activity, I seem to remember photographs of both sides having snowball fights in areas behind the line (probably for the same reason).

I'm reminded of the group I'd taken round our excavations in Thiepval Wood. I'd learned they were off to Disney after leaving the Somme. As my closing remarks I asked them if this was the case and got an enthusiastic response so I said "Listen! This is very important, it's the bit you have to remember." There was silence. "You have to go and have a great time tomorrow!" Cheers, then puzzement, why was this grubby, old archaeologist telling this? I said "You know there's a few folk here wish they were coming with you." I gestured, they thought some of the team had appeared until they looked and saw I'd pointed to the cemetery. "Yes, them, because they are only you and me! They're not "the glorious fallen", they're people like us and if they could've some of them would've come with you. Have fun!"

[Michael]

I find this very offensive as you seem to be insinuating that my 4 girls do not have any self respect or show respect to others. This could not be further from the truth. You make a judgement of my children without meeting them, quite an example for younger people to follow.

Max

What are you offended about? I didn't know that you had children so how can I be making a judgement about them?

Time to bow out and join the other disillusioned folk who've had enough of this sort of thing.

Bye

[John S]

I believe that Hill 60 was originally purchased after the war by the Queen Victoria's Rifles. Their (reconstructed) memorial is still on the top of the hill, of course. In later years the hill was handed over to the care of the CWGC. Tom

I have been in contact with CWGC and they state that Hill 60 is owned by the Belgium state but maintained by CWGC.

They did not answer my question as to whether the Hill is classified as a war cemetery but did seem to consider the snowball fight 'disrepectful'

I do not wish to re open the debate of the rights or wrongs of a snowball fight but do any of our Belgium friends know (or can find out) if Hill 60 is considered by the Belgium authorites a war cemetery as distinct from a battlefield site ?

John

[Rob Ruggenberg]

When I read this discussion I find a similarity with the emotion I felt when I first read the poem The Road to La Bassée, written by Bernard Newman and Harold Arpthorp, two British veterans. They visited La Bassée a couple of years after they had been fighting there.

May I quote some lines?

And the kids were playing marbles by the old Estaminet -

Fancy kiddies playing marbles on the road to La Bassée!

(...)

But down by Tunnel Trench I saw a sight that made me start,

For there, at Tourbieres crossroads - a gaudy ice-cream cart!

It was hot, and I was dusty, but somehow I couldn't stay -

Ices didn't seem quite decent on the road to La Bassée.

Now I keep asking myself: would they have minded kids throwing snowballs on the road to La Bassée???

Read the whole amazing poem on:

http://www.greatwar.nl/bassee/bassee-1.html

[anthony]

it's a sensitive one but knowing how difficult it is for young teenagers to stay focused after being cooped up on a coach for long periods of time then it is understandable....you have to trust that the adult will use their own discretion in those circumstances and come to the right decision.Certainly you would not want to offend anyone but there is a good argument that the snowball fight could be seen as appropriate also in that particular place.