Large Somme battlefield cemetery: located 1km+ from a proper road....WHY?

[dah]

QUESTION: Why would a cemetery with over 2,000 burials be located so far from a proper road (approx 1.5km in this case)?

Forum members will be quick to deduce which cemetery. Its name explains why the original cemetery is located where it is.......but that's not the point of my question.

It was the post-war concentration that massively enlarged the original cemetery to the current large size (I calculate it's the 11th largest on the 1916 Somme battlefield)

You can only access the cemetery via a lengthy (1km+) drive down a single farm track.......pretty much guaranteeing that this must be the least visited of the large cemeteries on the Somme. 

I've no complaint about the cemetery itself. It is an architectural gem - and looks particularly impressive in its isolated rural setting

My question is.....why locate a large concentration cemetery in such a remote location?

Many thanks,

David

[Jervis]

….and the cemetery is called?

[thetrenchrat22]

1 hour ago, dah said:

QUESTION: Why would a cemetery with over 2,000 burials be located so far from a proper road (approx 1.5km in this case)?

Forum members will be quick to deduce which cemetery. Its name explains why the original cemetery is located where it is.......but that's not the point of my question.

It was the post-war concentration that massively enlarged the original cemetery to the current large size (I calculate it's the 11th largest on the 1916 Somme battlefield)

You can only access the cemetery via a lengthy (1km+) drive down a single farm track.......pretty much guaranteeing that this must be the least visited of the large cemeteries on the Somme. 

I've no complaint about the cemetery itself. It is an architectural gem - and looks particularly impressive in its isolated rural setting

My question is.....why locate a large concentration cemetery in such a remote location?

Many thanks,

David

David, 

which cemetery ? As 3 or 4 spring to mind for me. 
 

What do you mean by a ‘Proper Road’ 

Alan

[Michelle Young]

In the 1920s I doubt whether the convenience for visitors 100 years later was uppermost in the IWGC mind. I assume you mean Regina Trench? Have you looked in the CWGC website archive for any information? I guess certain cemeteries got ear marked for expansion with th concentration of post war burials, maybe the rationale why is lost in the mists of time, but maybe Regina was chosen because of its significance to the Canadians? 

https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/23000/REGINA TRENCH CEMETERY, GRANDCOURT/

[chaz]

there are a few I can think of that are now accessable down tracks , a couple of which are passed by new motorways or roads but junctions are a way away so seen from the road but accessed via lanes.

the probability also exists  where small  farms were demolished and swallowed up into larger ones , the fields may have been reorganised into larger manageable ones needing different access roads.

[Marco]

9 hours ago, dah said:

I've no complaint about the cemetery itself.

Thank god for that.

[dah]

Yup, Regina Trench is the cemetery I was referring to.

Thanks also Michelle for the suggestion to look into the CWGC archive. I've had an hour's dip into that fascinating resource, my conclusion being that its content is mainly about considerations at the macro-level (i.e. policies governing all cemeteries).It is certainly not geared up to considerations about individual cemeteries, other than their architectural drawings of layout, wall construction etc. 

Such macro-policies as I looked at -  clearly suggested that  visitor impact was a key criteria. Witness the fascinating parliamentary debate regarding the commission's recommendation for 'Equality of Treatment' in the design and content of gravestones. The opposition argued for greater customisation of the gravestone in order to more uniquely memorialise their loved one; the counter-argument being the consequent visitor impression of a distinction between rich and poor

 

So....cemetery location and its relevance for visitor access has to have been a commission criteria.........but Regina Trench still stands out as an isolated anomaly.

The cemetery and the associated farm tracks  are in a direct line between Courcelette and Grandcourt, but I can't see there was ever a proper road directly connecting the two towns. The probable reason is that there is a sharp little valley north of the cemetery (of which valley feature Boom Ravine is a part). The nearest of today's roads is the D107 which connects Courcelette to Miraumont (and on which ADANAC Cemetery is located).....but you can't 

The Regina Trench cemetery's architectural drawings are dated around October 1922, meaning that all/any decisions about location and burial concentration pre-dated that. I couldn't find any commission meeting minutes that drilled down to individual cemetery or even country-region level.

If you know where the cemetery is and have the will to visit (approx 50% of visitors are Canadian)...it is accessible  But you're never going to chance upon it - or have it catch your eye when you're on your way somewhere else.

Hence my conclusion of the sparcity of visitors.

David

 

 

[AOK4]

What is nowadays not that accessible was probably as accessible as other cemeteries in the 1920s. There were no huge bus coaches back then, everything still mostly happened on foot or by bike. The IWGC couldn't foresee the transport and tourist evolution when they were creating the cemeteries. There was also a rule that existing cemeteries from a certain number of graves on would be kept (and if the need was there, could be enlarged as well). What is nowadays a small road, was a normal road in that area back then.

Blaming the CWGC/IWGC for having a cemetery at a nowadays not that easily accessible place (meaning that bus coaches filled with tourists can't easily drop off their loads right at the entrance), is IMHO ridiculous.

You should try to visit some of the cemeteries in Northern Italy.  

[AOK4]

And another thing: do we really want all cemeteries to be like Tyne Cot or Langemark German Cemetery where there is a constant flow of bus loads of tourists and school children? I even remember the days (only 20 years ago or so) where there was also only a small road leading to Tyne Cot Cemetery and not enough place there to park a bus. In this case, it was the commune that made the efforts to do some road works and enlarge the road and create a bus parking place etc.

Jan

Edited 2 August , 2021 by AOK4
typo

[knittinganddeath]

1 hour ago, dah said:

the sparcity of visitors

As long as it is well-kept and tended (which I don't doubt it is), I don't see the problem with it being off the beaten track. In fact, it sounds like the perfect place for people like me who really don't like crowds but who still want to pay their respect. Thanks for the thread, as I wouldn't know about this cemetery otherwise.

[dickaren]

16 hours ago, dah said:

QUESTION: Why would a cemetery with over 2,000 burials be located so far from a proper road (approx 1.5km in this case)?

Forum members will be quick to deduce which cemetery. Its name explains why the original cemetery is located where it is.......but that's not the point of my question.

It was the post-war concentration that massively enlarged the original cemetery to the current large size (I calculate it's the 11th largest on the 1916 Somme battlefield)

You can only access the cemetery via a lengthy (1km+) drive down a single farm track.......pretty much guaranteeing that this must be the least visited of the large cemeteries on the Somme. 

I've no complaint about the cemetery itself. It is an architectural gem - and looks particularly impressive in its isolated rural setting

My question is.....why locate a large concentration cemetery in such a remote location?

Many thanks,

David

If you look at trench maps dated 1918 for this area the track which now runs from Courcelette past the cemetery is named as Grandcourt Road so at the time the cemetery was just off of a "main" road.

Richard

[Don Regiano]

2 hours ago, AOK4 said:

do we really want all cemeteries to be like Tyne Cor

absolutely not - even Tyne Cot

[Michelle Young]

Most of the old registers give the distance from the nearest railway station, which is how they expected visitors to arrive.

[AOK4]

16 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Most of the old registers give the distance from the nearest railway station, which is how they expected visitors to arrive.

Yes, and from there mostly on foot or on bike.

[dah]

Thanks for all of the informative responses.

Richard's comment (AKA 'dickaren') about there having been a 1918 'main' road running by the cemetery seems the best explanation as to why its location was originally chosen.

To paraphrase Kipling's 'The Way Through The Woods', it seems that:

....Weather and rain have undone it again

....And now you would never know......

....There was once a road (passing by Regina Trench Cemetery)

Atb,

David

[Kscottperry]

I just came upon this thread while I was digging into a soldier (Pvt A.C. Blake 43rd Cdn Inf Bn 153008) whose picture I took on a visit to the Somme in  2018.  Regina Trench Cemetery is actually one of my "favourite" cemeteries to visit (although my inventory is short) in part because of its isolation.  It also has many graves of the 16th Battalion Canadian Scottish which is of particular interest to me.  ANyway, I don't post here that often but I was intrigued by the information on this thread as it was helpful; and I thought I would share a picture I took of the cemetery that highlights the beauty of its isolation.  The dreariness of the day, with the sun peaking through the clouds and accentuating the greens of the fields was amazing.  My apologies for being passionate here :-) 

[Fattyowls]

KSP, that is a really nice photograph and your passion for the location comes through. I have spent much of the last 18 months looking at photos of the battlefields and working out walking routes for when I can get back; I'm now thinking about Regina Trench, ADANAC, Courcelette and the Canadian Memorial for my next visit. If you have any more I'd love to see them.

Pete.

[Don Regiano]

1 hour ago, Fattyowls said:

any more

 

[Fattyowls]

Thanks Reg, in all the times I've been to the Somme I don't think I've visited the memorial, I even had to look up where it is. If I was a better or nicer person I'd be ashamed.

Pete.

[jay dubaya]

The Grandcourt Road did indeed run close to Regina Trench Cemetery around 100 yards west of the entrance, around 600 yards east was the Miramount Road both which were intersected by a road that ran between Pozieres and the former two villages. The infamous Twenty Three Road also intersected these two roads and ran 100 yards or so south west of the cemetery, all these roads are now rough single farm access tracks, there were several more tracks as shown on contempoary maps and the field system we see today still conforms to these tracks, their ghosts still visible from the air. Using google earth, contemporary maps and ariel images we can see that Regina Trench itself ran through what is now Row A, Plot 1.

[Fattyowls]

Superb work JD, thank you.

Pete.

[dah]

Love JD's aerial blended picture!

Also......Kscottperry's photo of the Regina Trench Cemetery in its former glory. Sadly, they removed most of the trees a couple of years back (disease?), so it looks rather different now.

David

 

[Kscottperry]

On 31/10/2021 at 09:24, Fattyowls said:

KSP, that is a really nice photograph and your passion for the location comes through. I have spent much of the last 18 months looking at photos of the battlefields and working out walking routes for when I can get back; I'm now thinking about Regina Trench, ADANAC, Courcelette and the Canadian Memorial for my next visit. If you have any more I'd love to see them.

Pete.

I'm sorry for just looking back at this now.  I hope everything went well for you for the time we were all locked down.  I'm just in a cabin in the woods in Quebec relaxing and I went back to this as I'm researching a Newfoundland soldier who was killed on July 1st, and I saw your note about more pictures.  I do have many, but these are my favourit of the Somme, and the area around Courcelette - Adanac Cemetery and Regina Trench.  Similar to the last picture, it was such a brilliant day with the greys of the clouds juxtaposed against the sweeping greens of the Somme - not hard to imagine going across those fields towards the Sugar Refinery and Regina Trench.

[Fattyowls]

Absolutely no problem KSP; they are lovely pictures and well worth waiting for.

Pete.

[MrEd]

On 02/08/2021 at 16:00, knittinganddeath said:

As long as it is well-kept and tended (which I don't doubt it is), I don't see the problem with it being off the beaten track. In fact, it sounds like the perfect place for people like me who really don't like crowds but who still want to pay their respect. Thanks for the thread, as I wouldn't know about this cemetery otherwise.

Agreed, while I will visit any cemetery, the ones that are tht bit less touristy and busy are a different atmosphere. I also prefer visiting in winter or autumn for the atmosphere and light