Is it possible to find out when a soldier was captured on the Western Front?

[Skipo]

Is it possible to find out when a soldier was captured on the Western Front and any POW records?

 

I'm specifically interested in Private Wallace James HUTCHENS [9577] of the 2nd Bn., The Yorkshire Regiment, whose service record no longer survives. He died in captivity in October 1918 at Wittenberg in Germany and is buried in Berlin.

 

Any pointers gratefully received.

 

Best,

 

Skip

[Matlock1418]

 

12 minutes ago, Skipo said:

Is it possible to find out when a soldier was captured on the Western Front and any POW records?

Yes, can often be found. 

Have you looked for a PoW record(s) on ICRC / CICR ? https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Search/#/3/2/107/0/Anglais et Commonwealth/Militaires 

I bit quirky and challenging to search - but always a place to try [and always consider alternative spellings of surnames - the clerks often mis-transcribed]

:-) M

Edited 1 August , 2021 by Matlock1418
addit

[Skipo]

Top tip Matlock. Will give that a go. Much appreciated.

[Skipo]

No luck unfortunately.

[Matlock1418]

15 minutes ago, Skipo said:

No luck unfortunately.

I know we crossed as I edited my first post - but always worth checking surname variants [he is actually listed under Hitchins - but comes up as this]

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Search/#/3/2/224/0/British and Commonwealth/Military/hutchens

:-) M

Edit: Know this won't answer your question on HUTCHENS - rather looks like an enquiry rather than a PoW record

See front of card "Blesse en mars et disparu"

Edited 1 August , 2021 by Matlock1418
Edit

[Skipo]

Many thanks indeed Matlock. Look like he was captured on 30 Oct 1914.

Can anyone please advise what the annotations mean on his POW record? They are:

 

• Sold. York I.A.C.
• P.A. 41012 (prisoner number?)
• P.A. 1911
• P.A. 1233
• P.A. 1036
• P.A. 722
• The "B." after "2 Yorks Regt" (B Company?)

 

Not sure whether i can post the image due to copyright issues.

 

Best,

 

Skip

[Matlock1418]

The "PA" references refer to specific records page for a given prisoner.

Hover your mouse pointer over the card - Hit on the red banner across the middle of the card - enter, individually, in the little search box and they will come up in more detail - you may then need to scroll down to the exact page to find your man's entry

Most of such records are records of where a PoW was at a given date but commonly give date & place of capture and if wounded/unwounded. Also the previous place of holding. DoB, NoK etc.

You can then often [though I am not very good at it] trace a route over several camps.

Any "R" records that you might encounter are repatriation records - a dated list and place of repatriation usually.

:-) M

Edited 1 August , 2021 by Matlock1418

[Skipo]

Wow, thanks so much Matlock. That has really helped bring his story alive. I'll dig out my schoolboy German dictionary and get stuck into this. 

 

Very much appreciated.

[MaxD]

You may have done this already but to cross check:

Soldier (ie private) Yorkshire  J R C is the way Infantry Regiment Company C was rendered.

PA 722 is a list dated 16 Dec 1914 showing him in the Field Hospital Roubaix

PA 1036 is a list dated 9 Jan 1915 from Wittenberg which gives his place of capture as Commius (?)

PA 1233 is a list dated 18 Jan 1915 showing him in the Field Hospital No 5 with “hips” XV Army Corps Wervicque Belgium

PA 1911 is a list dated 3 Apr 1915 from the Field Hospital at Roubaix Gunshot wound hips

PA 41012 is a list from Wittenberg dated 24 Oct 1918 giving captured at Ypres 30 Oct 1914, died on 17 Oct 1918 of pneumonia

 

MaxD

[Skipo]

MaxD - many thanks indeed. This really helps and is very much appreciated.

 

Have been reading about Wittenberg. Grim.

[MaxD]

Commius could be Comines.  The battalion war diary 2 Battalion Yorkshire Regiment | The National Archives is worth a read, the action up to and beyond 30 Oct 1914 is described in a reasonable amount of detail.  There is also much to read in the HQ 7 Div diary where one BL Montgomery was to be found.  Headquarters Branches and Services: General Staff. | The National Archives

 

MaxD

[Skipo]

Thanks MaxD - I've kindly been pointed in the right direction of the WD and agree that it's likely to be Comines. Much appreciated.

[Keith_history_buff]

The ICRC records are of particular use with this specific question. It is great they have been put in the public domain, but navigating via the ICRC website is a quirky way of accessing these poorly indexed records. I think FMP have indexed and digitised these records.

Although it does not answer your question, it is my understanding that two months after a man was missing in action, he was listed in "The Times". If your library has access to "The Times Online", you could try and find him on a War Office list.

The POW repatriation lists are available via the British Newspaper Archive, and I believe a certain level of FMP subscription likewise provides access.

[MaxD]

Yorkshire Post 16 Apr 1915 and Sheffield Daily Telegraph have an amendment to a previous post (4 Mar 1915 Sheffield Daily Telegraph) of wounded, now wounded and prisoner The British Newspaper Archive | findmypast.co.uk

 

MaxD

Edited 2 August , 2021 by MaxD
Error

[Skipo]

29 minutes ago, MaxD said:

Yorkshire Post 16 Apr 1915 and Sheffield Daily Telegraph have an amendment to a previous post (4 Mar 1915 Sheffield Daily Telegraph) of wounded, now wounded and prisoner The British Newspaper Archive | findmypast.co.uk

 

MaxD

Thanks very much MaxD. This is useful as it points to when his parents would have felt some relief, albeit it sadly temporary. Much appreciated. 

1 hour ago, Keith_history_buff said:

The ICRC records are of particular use with this specific question. It is great they have been put in the public domain, but navigating via the ICRC website is a quirky way of accessing these poorly indexed records. I think FMP have indexed and digitised these records.

Although it does not answer your question, it is my understanding that two months after a man was missing in action, he was listed in "The Times". If your library has access to "The Times Online", you could try and find him on a War Office list.

The POW repatriation lists are available via the British Newspaper Archive, and I believe a certain level of FMP subscription likewise provides access.

Thanks Keith, these records are new to me - it's a great resource but like you say seem quirky. Will follow up on The Times lead. Cheers.

[MaxD]

3 minutes ago, Skipo said:

The POW repatriation lists are available via the British Newspaper Archive, (from Keith_history_buff)

True but our chap wasn't repatriated as he sadly died in captivity.

 

MaxD

[Keith_history_buff]

I have come across an instance of a War Office list from The Times in 1914 being reproduced in part by a local newspaper, and I daresay this went on, so you could see the reproduced list if you have access to BNA / FMP bells & whistles, even if you do not have access to The Times Digital Archive. (I'm thinking this is how the names have ended up appearing in the Yorkshire Post, as well as the Sheffield Daily Telegraph.)

The WO repatriation lists are useful for confirming the date that a repatriated POW is acknowledged as arriving back in GB, but if they died in captivity they will not have been repatriated.

[Skipo]

I have FMP and will follow that up to check on any newspaper mentions Keith. Many thanks.

[MaxD]

Posted 17 minutes ago

I have come across an instance of a War Office list from The Times in 1914 being reproduced in part by a local newspaper,  Exactly, I cited two of them an hour ago!  The full casuaty lists are often difficult to read, quite a bonus when the local papers picked out the names of men from the general area

 

MaxD

Edited 1 August , 2021 by MaxD

[brianmorris547]

This summary is from the WD of 7 Div A&QMG (Courtesy TNA WO 95/1635 and Ancestry p 24/323). See under 21 Infantry Brigade.

I am looking in the Times for a list of Yorkshire Regt Missing to see if your man is named, no luck yet.

Brian

[Skipo]

Brian - many thanks for checking. It's much appreciated and I have my fingers crossed.

 

Best,

 

Skip

[BillyH]

The attached document is usually helpful.

BillyH.

POW - Key to Abbreviations etc.pdf

[PRC]

CWGC shows 70 members of the 2nd Battalion as having died on the 30th October 1914. Most are remembered on the Ypres Menin Gate Memorial, although a few were concentrated post -war from German Cemeteries such as Koelberg Forest German Military Cemetery, (map reference Sheet 28 K.32.c.4.5.) or I suspect from even closer to the battlefield at Reutel German Military Cemetery -

(Image courtesy the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, attached 10161 Leslie Atthill amongst others).I

Nearly all the killed, including those who had no known grave, are on a Casualty List that appeared in the edition of The Times dated Tuesday, January 26, 1915. It comes from a report that was dated 5th December. The Missing and the wounded in the same list were also checked.

However 6 of the names recorded on CWGC as having died on the 30th October 1914 are not on that Casualty List.

7114 Private Richard Williamson died of wounds at Wimereux and is recorded as such in a Casualty list in The Times dated Friday December 14, 1914.

8164 Private Thomas Masshedar has no known grave, but according to a Casualty List in The Times dated Monday January 4, 1915 he died of wounds.

But the other four, (Clements 7794, Heath 7463, Raynor 7887 and Simcock 9996) plus Hutchens all continue to elude me. A check of the Casualty List in the 4th March 1915 edition of the Sheffield Daily Telegraph, a daily newspaper, and The Times for the previous day also drew a blank - but I am well overdue a sight test

If no-one else has any luck I take a look again with fresh eyes in the morning.

Cheers,
Peter

[Skipo]

9 hours ago, BillyH said:

The attached document is usually helpful.

BillyH.

POW - Key to Abbreviations etc.pdf 564.99 kB · 2 downloads

Billy - many thanks fo this. Have saved it for future use. Cheers.

[Skipo]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

CWGC shows 70 members of the 2nd Battalion as having died on the 30th October 1914. Most are remembered on the Ypres Menin Gate Memorial, although a few were concentrated post -war from German Cemeteries such as Koelberg Forest German Military Cemetery, (map reference Sheet 28 K.32.c.4.5.) or I suspect from even closer to the battlefield at Reutel German Military Cemetery -

(Image courtesy the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, attached 10161 Leslie Atthill amongst others).I

Nearly all the killed, including those who had no known grave, are on a Casualty List that appeared in the edition of The Times dated Tuesday, January 26, 1915. It comes from a report that was dated 5th December. The Missing and the wounded in the same list were also checked.

However 6 of the names recorded on CWGC as having died on the 30th October 1914 are not on that Casualty List.

7114 Private Richard Williamson died of wounds at Wimereux and is recorded as such in a Casualty list in The Times dated Friday December 14, 1914.

8164 Private Thomas Masshedar has no known grave, but according to a Casualty List in The Times dated Monday January 4, 1915 he died of wounds.

But the other four, (Clements 7794, Heath 7463, Raynor 7887 and Simcock 9996) plus Hutchens all continue to elude me. A check of the Casualty List in the 4th March 1915 edition of the Sheffield Daily Telegraph, a daily newspaper, and The Times for the previous day also drew a blank - but I am well overdue a sight test

If no-one else has any luck I take a look again with fresh eyes in the morning.

Cheers,
Peter

Peter - many thanks for checking on this. The war Diary suggests that Hutchens may have been one of ten men who were "lost" when the battalion was forced to retire on the 30th. The CO and 2-i-c had both been killed so a captain took charge and drew in the left flank first trusting the right hand platoon (who were engaging the enemy) to hold on until dusk when they could themselves retire. 

 

Best,

 

Skip