Help Applying for Medal

[sr97]

Hi all,

Some of you may know I have discussed my great great-grandfather here before, Serjeant Richard Henry Hunt, 7978 of the first battalion, East Surrey Regiment. I have now found out much more about him and am currently in touch with a man who is researching the Hunt family during the war. I am writing now to ask the forum for help in regards to potentially obtaining his medals. I should say that I'm based in Ireland so not sure how feasible this is. A member of the forum previously told me that his Victory Medal was returned and possibly reissued, but there also an inquiry between 1979 and 1981, no idea who by. 

Is there anyone here who could make sense of this and perhaps point me in the right direction of getting started if it's at all possible. Thank you.

[Knotty]

Hi sr97

For my sins I keep a record of medals owned by members on the Forum, only if they so wish to let me know what they have, having checked through I have no record of your g-gf being in a member's possession.

I see that he was one of the early casualties so entitled to the 14 Star and clasp, BWM and VM, however WW1 medals can only be re-claimed if they were previously issued AND returned. The MIC  / Medal Rolls would record that information. They cannot be claimed if never initially awarded / claimed for. They can only be claimed by the closest living relative. I think you need to see what a Medal expert comes up with in deciphering the MIC.

It appears to me that there could be a date of 24 /1 /2 opposite the clasp?

[TEW]

Interesting card to pick through and I've checked against the rolls.

The Clasp Returned NW/9/4033 is explained in a 1925 letter on ancestry page 5/371 of the 14 Star Roll. Looks like 101 clasps were issued incorrectly, various ACIs quoted.

Not sure how it's possible for only the Victory to be returned under KR 1743 but that seems to be the case here. They were sent out together with one receipt to be signed for both medals. Can't see how the BWM was signed for and receipt returned while the VM was 'undeliverable'. Perhaps a clerk's error who should have written VM & BM Retd. Or perhaps it was obvious to the MO that it meant both medals, bit sloppy though.

Edit: just noticed the roll is for Victory only.

The more recent dates.

17/12/1979. An enquiry was made regarding the man. Could be a family member or pension related from DHSS or another official body. Sometimes these dates equate to a death (possibly of spouse).

DIV IA 13/3/1980. Not seen this before.

NFA 10/6/1981, filed 24/1/2. Not seen this before.

All three relate to the 17/12/1979 enquiry and subsequent actions. Check family history to see what events took place 1979-81.

VOL B198 & C444. Both are former references which equate to the present WO329 medal roll.

I'd say you have every chance of getting a replacement Victory Medal.

I doubt the MOD know what the DIV IA or NFA references mean even if they do relate to the medals as opposed to the man.

Not sure if the MOD issue replacement clasps but if they read the 1925 letter I doubt they will in this case.

Need someone to check the content of that letter carefully but it does seem they either did or were about to issue clasps to men not entitled. The clasps may have been returned to the MO by Hounslow records.

TEW

 

[sr97]

2 hours ago, Knotty said:

 

For my sins I keep a record of medals owned by members on the Forum, only if they so wish to let me know what they have, having checked through I have no record of your g-gf being in a member's possession.

It appears to me that there could be a date of 24 /1 /2 opposite the clasp?

Hi Knotty, thank you for checking your list, much appreciated. Yes was unsure of a clasp issued in the 20s as Richard was KIA in 1914. 

 

23 minutes ago, TEW said:

The Clasp Returned NW/9/4033 is explained in a 1925 letter on ancestry page 5/371 of the 14 Star Roll. Looks like 101 clasps were issued incorrectly, various ACIs quoted.

17/12/1979. An enquiry was made regarding the man. Could be a family member or pension related from DHSS or another official body. Sometimes these dates equate to a death (possibly of spouse).

I'd say you have every chance of getting a replacement Victory Medal.

Need someone to check the content of that letter carefully but it does seem they either did or were about to issue clasps to men not entitled. The clasps may have been returned to the MO by Hounslow records.

Hi TEW, brilliant information thank you! Unfortunately my brain goes a bit blank when looking at all those numbers. I have never seen this letter on Ancestry, can I ask what it discusses? So was it mistakenly given to Richard considering he had been dead for quite some time? In regards to the 79/81 enquiries I know that it would not have been his wife as she died in the 1930s. They did have two sons, my great-grandad Lawrence and his brother Richard so possibly one of these men, but with my Grandfather, Lawrence's eldest son now passed I have no way of knowing. 

@Keith_history_buff thank you for tagging me in the other post very helpful, and gives some some hope, I've sent on an email to the mod to enquire further.

Edited 26 July , 2021 by sr97

[TEW]

You'll need to find the ancestry 1914 Star Roll, under Hunt & 7978.

Change the page number to 5. You could post the letter up and someone may know more. Can't link as I use library version.

I didn't factor in that he'd died in 1914! A NOK could have applied for a Clasp on its own (no Rose) for deceased.

I think it's more likely that Hounslow (incorrectly) added Clasp details to the roll and then found they hadn't understood the criteria correctly. I suspect it was Hounslow who returned the Clasps.

The NW/9 reference relates to files on policy and eligibility for units and individuals. In this case the 1925 letter (medal roll) could equate to NW/9/4033, if true it's an unusual survival of lost records.

TEW

[Keith_history_buff]

31 minutes ago, TEW said:

I didn't factor in that he'd died in 1914! A NOK could have applied for a Clasp on its own (no Rose) for deceased.

There is evidence that the NOK were supposed to be issued with clasps. Forum user WilliyWonker has looked into this. This proposal was made by Colonel Gilbert Robertson Frith (1873-1958), Assistant Adjutant General of A.G.10 Medals Branch on 16 July 1919. It was approved by Winston Churchill, the Secretary of State for War, on 17 July 1919.

This was formally embedded by the Admiralty in Paragraph 4 of Admiralty Fleet Order 4036 dated 17 December 1919.

Although it does not appear to have been codified in an Army Order, there is evidence in the War Office medal rolls of green pencil marks against those dead men, for whom a clasp was sent out. The initial interpretation was that any soldier who died during the Qualifying Period (of 4 August to 23 November 1914) ought to have their clasp automatically issued with the medal. There are some men who died in WW1 after the Qualifying Period who still got a clasp automatically issued, and some who did not. 

You would have to analyse the 1914 Star medal roll for a given unit. There appears to be inconsistencies between Infantry Record Offices. There are inconsistencies in the approach for one of the battalions of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, and the subsequent battalion that arrived. 

[TEW]

The 1925 letter in the roll refers to 101 clasps being returned under KR 992 from Hounslow to the MO. Likely that Hunt's was one of these 101.

They mention Army Book 423 of Queen' s Royal Regt. showing 94 clasps received but not issued while 81 are held in stock as per the 'Medal Stock Book' held under ACI 248 of 1923.

It seems some clasps were sent out before the ACI of 1923 which were awarded from the Army Book 423 BUT not marked as despatched!

There is more regarding duplicate returns in another NW/9 file.

Fair to say, they got themselves in a muddle with the clasps!

I'm not seeing any references to indicate anyone actually put in a claim for a clasp. I wonder if one had already been sent to the NOK and a duplicate was returned later under KR 992.

His 14 Star Roll is blue ticked but has a green C, then the clasp returned part. The roll adds a date for the medal (& clasp?) being despatched by post 23/7/1919.

TEW

[JustT]

Hi, I am sorry to jump on your thread but I too wanted to look into applying for my Great Grandfather's medals. His medal card says 'Retd'. I have asked any relatives that are still with us and they don't know what happened to them or if they were ever returned to him. His medal card is below. Thanks in advance for any help as to how I should proceed. Justine

 

[sr97]

5 minutes ago, JustT said:

Thanks in advance for any help as to how I should proceed. Justine

Hi Justine, 

No problem at all, in the end I was advised to send an enquiry email to DBS-medals@mod.gov.uk with a short bit of information about my relative and a copy of his medal card. One of their team members was able to look into it and confirm what was returned and possibly available to be reissued. I was asked to fill out a form and post it with a copy of the medal card to Imjin Barracks in Glouchester. Sent from Dublin last week but have not heard back yet, fingers crossed I do soon with good news. I was in the same boat as you as none of my relatives knew about the medals so I found this route to be the most helpful. Hope this is of use to you.

[JustT]

Thank you for your help. I will give that a go. I don't have the physical card so can only print the photo out and send over with what info I do have. Its worth a try.

Justine 

[sr97]

10 minutes ago, JustT said:

Thank you for your help. I will give that a go. I don't have the physical card so can only print the photo out and send over with what info I do have. Its worth a try.

Justine 

I did the exact same. I printed it in colour and a4 in size so everything can be read clearly and put it in the envelope with form along with a letter explaining my request and the contents attached. Hopefully that'll be enough, I think for many it would be difficult to get their hands on the original card. Wishing you all the best in your search!

[JustT]

Thanks again.