Arthur Huggett and Albert George Wragg - Some sleuthing please!

[DaveMurphy]

G’day All, 

My wife is very close after 45 years to finding out who her biological father is, however it is known that these two chaps Arthur Huggett and Albert Wragg are her paternal Great-Grandfathers. I am in Australia so my knowledge of the UK is little to none in terms of place names/local military units etc so please bear with me :-)

The known details are:

Arthur Huggett (b. Jul 1879 place unknown d. 22 Jul 1935 in Croydon, Surrey) married Ada Hasker (b. 3 Apr 1879 d. 14 May 1930)

Albert George Wragg (b. Unknown) married Alice May Scorey likely in Essex area. He may however be too young (based on children’s birthdates) to have served in WW1.

 

With my limited resources, I was able to find an “Arthur Huggett 11561 East Surrey Regt” but thats about it, and not sure its him. I would love to find out more and of there service if anything exists.

Any and all assistance gratefully appreciated. 

Cheers, 

Dave

[Matlock1418]

 

24 minutes ago, DaveMurphy said:

I was able to find an “Arthur Huggett 11561 East Surrey Regt” but thats about it, and not sure its him.

For this Arthur Huggett = A Medal Index Card exists for him - its a 'Discharge Card' type showing service 5.8.15 to 6.11.15 he was discharged under KR Para 392 xvi as Sick.

This entitled him to a Silver War Badge. and this was listed.

With discharge after only such short service it rather looks like his sickness was a pre-existing condition.

The SWB Roll dated 18 May 1917 shows he was issued SWB no. 176798 from Hounslow.

That's all I could find.  No pension card(s) - which again suggest a lack of attribution to service.

:-) M

[tootrock]

Albert George Wragg married Alice M Scorey in Bethnal Green, registered October 1923

Martin.

[ss002d6252]

I suspect this is probably Albert's birth record.


Craig

[DaveMurphy]

Thanks very much for the replies!

Someone has kindly forwarded me the Pension Record for Arthur Huggett 124552 11 East Surrey Regt. He then appears to have been transferred to an Engineer Corps renumbered 337356 and discharged sick in 1917.

Can anyone make sense of the attached to see why?

[Matlock1418]

22 minutes ago, DaveMurphy said:

Arthur Huggett 124552 11 East Surrey Regt. He then appears to have been transferred to an Engineer Corps renumbered 337356 and discharged sick in 1917.

Can anyone make sense of the attached to see why?

For this Arthur Huggett = A Medal Index Card exists for him - its a 'Discharge Card' type showing service 17.8.17 to 20.12.17 he was discharged under KR Para 392 xvi as Sick.

This entitled him to a Silver War Badge. and this was listed.

The SWB Roll has him issued with SWB B256609 from 19(b), Tavistock Sq., London - his age was noted as 37 years [assuming that was at discharge then his DoB would be c.1880]

With discharge after only such short service it rather looks like his sickness was perhaps a pre-existing condition.

I'm afraid I can't see anything in your above abstract - but checking his Pension Index cards at WFA/Fold3 as RE IW&D 337356 there is an address of 71 Donald Rd, West Croydon, Surrey - does this address ring any bells?

There is however no indication of what his claim was for.

:-) M

Edited 20 July , 2021 by Matlock1418
Added details of SWB

[DaveMurphy]

Yes that’s the right one Matlock as his wife listed on the Papers is Ada Hasker which matches the family records, and the address matches too.

I’d be interested in what the discharge condition was if it can be deciphered.

[Matlock1418]

Can't help with the condition but having being re-reading his PIC was planning to edit my earlier reply [but you replied first] to add the following - so now do:

That said the Pension Index Card shows an award Ad: 4.6.18 @ 9/3 + 22/9 fr: 29.5.18 to 3.9.18

For a discharge in 1918 under the 1917 Royal Warrant on pay & pensions for a Sapper a payment of 19/3 {pw] would be equivalent to a 70% disability [22/- would be 80%]

:-) M

Edit: Not that it was absolute, but the guide to Degree of disablement % and pensions shows 70% = "Short thigh amputation of leg or right arm above or at elbow.  Total deafness" [80% = Amputation of leg at hip or left arm at shoulder joint.  Severe facial disfigurement.  Total loss of speech"] - I believe these were example guides to determine the degree of disability awarded

As 337356 - His pension file is likely long gone/deliberately destroyed after its use was ended.  I could not find a record for him amongst the few retained PIN 26 files still kept at the National Archives [nor under 124552]

Edited 20 July , 2021 by Matlock1418
edit

[Matlock1418]

Ah, had time to look for/at the 124552 / 337358 record that you part posted above.

His 9-7-17 Attestation and record [also marked as G/45096] - with rather low Medical Category = Cat Cii - It does show a declared earlier enlistment of 3 Months with 11 East Surrey Regt - then called up for service with the RAMC, 18.8.17, then to RE, 25.9.17

I currently feel the G/45096 may perhaps be a mixing of men's records as he too was discharged with a SWB - Arthur Huggett, 45096, Royal West Surrey, has other records too. From what you report his family details seem different - and looking on in his records this one signed for his SWB as Arthur Ernest Huggett.

:-) M

Edited 20 July , 2021 by Matlock1418

[clk]

Hi Dave,

3 hours ago, DaveMurphy said:

Albert George Wragg (b. Unknown) married Alice May Scorey likely in Essex area.

 

2 hours ago, tootrock said:

Albert George Wragg married Alice M Scorey in Bethnal Green, registered October 1923

 

Image sourced from Ancestry

Regards
Chris

[PRC]

3 hours ago, DaveMurphy said:

Albert George Wragg (b. Unknown) married Alice May Scorey likely in Essex area. He may however be too young (based on children’s birthdates) to have served in WW1.

An Albert G Wragg, born 21st August 1902 and a married Wood Machinist, was recorded as the first person in the household at 89 Braintree Street, Stepney in the 1939 Register. (The 1939 Register was a mini-census taken on the 29th September 1939 in part to gauge the nations skills and potential labour pool fo a modern industrial war. It was subsequently used to control the issue of ID cards and rations books, and post war was used as the initial registry for the NHS. As a result it was updated until the early 1990's with name changes. Only a limited part of the total return for each individual has been made available and can be seen on the likes of FindMyPast and Ancestry. One of the many drawbacks in the way the information is presented is that it does not make explicit the relationships between members of the household).

The second person resident is a married woman, (and almost certainly Alberts' wife), was Alice M. Wragg, born 16th July 1901 and carrying out unpaid domestic duties.

The third and last person is an unmarried woman, Elsie M. Wragg, born 14th June 1924 and working as a Children's Coat Machinist. The custodian of the document was notified in April 1948 that Elsie had changed her surname to Bunting. This was almost certainly on marriage.

May be a co-incidence, but the birth of an Elsie M. Wragg, mothers' maiden name Scorey, was registered with the civil authorities in the Whitechapel District of London in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1924.

So given that date of birth, backed up by the entry in the civil records found by @ss002d6252 and his age on the marriage certificate supplied by @clk I would say it's very unlikely that your Albert Wragg saw any armed forces service in the Great War.

Hope that helps,
Peter

[kenf48]

2 hours ago, DaveMurphy said:

He then appears to have been transferred to an Engineer Corps renumbered 337356 and discharged sick in 1917.

Can anyone make sense of the attached to see why?

Pre-war the East Surrey Regiment (along with the Queen's RWS) recruited from South London and Croydon.  Their depot was at Kingston-on-Thames therefore it's not surprising he ended up being conscripted to  that regiment. The 11th Battalion was a reserve battallion and did not serve overseas. He enlisted towards the end of the voluntary period in August 1915 and was discharged three months later.  The Silver War Badge records note whether a man was discharged through 'sickness' or 'wounds' (often abbreviated to 's' or 'w', but it made no material difference to the issue of the badge and the record on the Roll. Therfore after 126 days he was sent home unfit for war service, we don't know why, his occupation was a painter, it could have been connected to his trade or it could have been a disease such as TB or a heart condition, that's speculative but you may wish to obtain his death certificate which could offer a clue.

In April 1917 in response to manpower shortages in the Army the Government introduced the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act 1917, this 'combed out' men from industry and those previously judged unfit for military service.  He came under the provisions of the Act.  It was controversial as it initially included those discharged due to wounds.  On the 20th June 1917 he was medically examined at Croydon and placed in category CII (as noted above), although the Categories changed during the war 'C' meant he was only fit for 'Home Service', essentially 'Labour service in Home Camps' see:-

He was deemed to have enlisted on the 9th July, in other words his exemption from military service ceased and he was now in the Army Reserve, given a month (or so) to sort out his affairs he was called up for service on the 17th August 1917.  He again went to the East Surrey Depot at Kingston who took one look at him and posted him to the RAMC the following day.  On the 25th September he was posted to the Royal Engineers and appointed a 'Sapper' the following day and  posted to the IWT, where he was no doubt set to work in workshops using his civilian skills.  He remained unfit and was medically discharged for the final time on 20 December 1917.

The fragment posted above has no relevance to the reason for his discharge.

The first entry is from the Training Unit of the RAMC  at Blackpool stating,

"Detailed to report to ic Western Command Trade Training Section at Burscough for Trade Test',it then gives the RAMC Authority; this means he was sent to demonstrate his skill as painter's Labourer/painter to the Army.  He evidently passed as the next entry, again from the RAMC at Blackpool shows he is transferred to the RE at White City Depot Bristol and again showing the various administrative authorities and orders allowing this.  The final entry shows he was posted to the Docks at Bristol.

He did not serve overseas, and the assumption must be it was a pre-existing condition, though not mentioned on the surviving record.

 

[DaveMurphy]

Awesome information thanks Peter! I figured he might have been to young.

[DaveMurphy]

Brilliant information thanks Ken. I appreciate the time it took to write that up.

19 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi Dave,

 

 

Image sourced from Ancestry

Regards
Chris

Albert and Alice didn’t have to look far… this has them as neighbours! 😀

[PRC]

4 hours ago, DaveMurphy said:

Arthur Huggett (b. Jul 1879 place unknown d. 22 Jul 1935 in Croydon, Surrey) married Ada Hasker (b. 3 Apr 1879 d. 14 May 1930)

Ada Hasker married an Arthur Huggett, (no middle names), in the Croydon District of Surrey in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1903.

On the 1911 Census of England and Wales, (taken on the evening of the 2nd April 1911 and the first census return completed by a member of the household), there is a 31 year old Arthur Huggett, born Tonbridge, Kent, a married Marine General Dealer who was recorded as the head of the household at 3 St Georges Square, Northampton. (The marine probably refers to canal boats!). He lives there with his wife of 8 years, Ada Huggett, aged 31 and born Northampton. The couple have had three children so far, all then still alive and living with them:-
Alfred Huggett, aged 7, born Croydon. (The birth of an Alfred John Huggett, mothers' maiden name Hasker, was registered Croydon District Q3 1904).
"Pheobe" Huggett, aged 5, born Northampton. (The birth of a Phoebe Eleanor Huggett, mothers' maiden name Hasker, was registered Northampton District Q1 1906)
"Regenald" Huggett, aged 2, borth Northampton. (The birth of a Reginald Bertie Huggett, mothers' maiden name Hasker, was registered Northampton District Q3 1909)

Edit: Just as paperwork does not seem to be Arthurs' forte, getting used to the new formatting options on the forum seems to be my Achilles heel. Have accidentally posted too soon

Edited 20 July , 2021 by PRC

[Matlock1418]

25 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act 1917

Ken,

Thanks for clarifying that - I was just checking it out as it appears as M S (R of E) Act 1917 in his record [Was called away and you beat me - with a much fuller/better answer than I would have provided!].

:-) M

Edited 20 July , 2021 by Matlock1418
typo

[DaveMurphy]

4 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

I suspect this is probably Albert's birth record.


Craig

Thank you Craig!

[PRC]

Just to finish off the 1911 Census information,  Arthur Huggett is not shown as working from home, so may have premises elsewhere that can be tracked down by  contemporary trade directories. He may also be referenced in local newspapers of the time.

Additional likely children registered in England & Wales with surname Huggett, mothers' maiden name Hasker are:-
Q4 1911 Northampton District.............William F
Q1 1913 Northampton District.............Sidney
Q2 1914 Croydon District.......................Winifred A (Some genealogy sites have incorrectly transcribed as Winfred).
Q2 1917 Croydon District.......................Jasper H
Q1 1919 Croydon District......................Ernest C
Q4 1924 Croydon District......................Mary A.E.

So if it's all one family it looks like the move back to Croydon happened 1913/14. If the correct military records for "your" Arthur Huggett has been identified, then looks like none of the children will have been born while Arthur was serving. The birth certificate for Jasper would seem a good check - if his father was serving then fathers' occupation should show rank and regiment \ corps as a minimum, although it can vary from anywhere between "A Soldier" to giving service number, unit down to Company Level and location.

A quick look in the Census records for an Arthur Huggett born c1879 in Tonbridge, Kent, does bring up a match on the 1881 Census of England & Wales. A 1 year old Arthur Huggett, born Tonbridge, was recorded living in a dwelling at Woodlands Field, Quarry Hill, Tonbridge. This was the household of his parents, Daniel Huggett, aged 22, a General Labourer from East Grinstead, Sussex, and Sarah Huggett, aged 24 and born Tonbridge. The couple also have an older son, William, aged 3 and born Tonbridge.

The nearest match to a birth is that for an Arthur Frederick Huggett which was registered in the Tunbridge Wells Civil Registration District in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1879. That Civil Registration District included the civil parish of Tonbridge. (It's also sometimes called the Tonbridge Civil Registration District which doesn't help). Unfortunately on the sources I have available to me I don't have a mothers' maiden name. However there is also the death of an Arthur Frederick Huggett, aged under 1, recorded in the same Civil Registration District in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1879.

Again may be a complete co-incidence, (many things are in genealogy !), but a Daniel Huggett married a Sarah Saxby in the Tunbridge Wells District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1881. The birth of an Arthur Saxby turns up in the Tunbridge Wells District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1880. I'm not seeing him subsequently in the Census or death records. There is also a William John Saxby, mothers' maiden name Saxby, which was recorded in the Tonbridge District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1878.

So going back to the wedding of Arthur and Ada, is there a known father listed for him on the wedding certificate. If so, who was it, what was his trade, and has he been shown as deceased?

Hope some of that helps
Peter

[DaveMurphy]

On 20/07/2021 at 23:09, PRC said:

Just to finish off the 1911 Census information,  Arthur Huggett is not shown as working from home, so may have premises elsewhere that can be tracked down by  contemporary trade directories. He may also be referenced in local newspapers of the time.

Additional likely children registered in England & Wales with surname Huggett, mothers' maiden name Hasker are:-
Q4 1911 Northampton District.............William F
Q1 1913 Northampton District.............Sidney
Q2 1914 Croydon District.......................Winifred A (Some genealogy sites have incorrectly transcribed as Winfred).
Q2 1917 Croydon District.......................Jasper H
Q1 1919 Croydon District......................Ernest C
Q4 1924 Croydon District......................Mary A.E.

So if it's all one family it looks like the move back to Croydon happened 1913/14. If the correct military records for "your" Arthur Huggett has been identified, then looks like none of the children will have been born while Arthur was serving. The birth certificate for Jasper would seem a good check - if his father was serving then fathers' occupation should show rank and regiment \ corps as a minimum, although it can vary from anywhere between "A Soldier" to giving service number, unit down to Company Level and location.

A quick look in the Census records for an Arthur Huggett born c1879 in Tonbridge, Kent, does bring up a match on the 1881 Census of England & Wales. A 1 year old Arthur Huggett, born Tonbridge, was recorded living in a dwelling at Woodlands Field, Quarry Hill, Tonbridge. This was the household of his parents, Daniel Huggett, aged 22, a General Labourer from East Grinstead, Sussex, and Sarah Huggett, aged 24 and born Tonbridge. The couple also have an older son, William, aged 3 and born Tonbridge.

The nearest match to a birth is that for an Arthur Frederick Huggett which was registered in the Tunbridge Wells Civil Registration District in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1879. That Civil Registration District included the civil parish of Tonbridge. (It's also sometimes called the Tonbridge Civil Registration District which doesn't help). Unfortunately on the sources I have available to me I don't have a mothers' maiden name. However there is also the death of an Arthur Frederick Huggett, aged under 1, recorded in the same Civil Registration District in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1879.

Again may be a complete co-incidence, (many things are in genealogy !), but a Daniel Huggett married a Sarah Saxby in the Tunbridge Wells District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1881. The birth of an Arthur Saxby turns up in the Tunbridge Wells District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1880. I'm not seeing him subsequently in the Census or death records. There is also a William John Saxby, mothers' maiden name Saxby, which was recorded in the Tonbridge District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1878.

So going back to the wedding of Arthur and Ada, is there a known father listed for him on the wedding certificate. If so, who was it, what was his trade, and has he been shown as deceased?

Hope some of that helps
Peter

Peter, 

Thanks very much for this detailed information. I will do a bit more digging around (my father is by far the family expert on genealogy) and this information will give him some excellent points to work from. I will add more to this post as it comes to hand. 

Cheers, 

Dave