Skipman Posted 15 July , 2021 Share Posted 15 July , 2021 Is there such a thing as a list of missing diaries. I dare say some battalion diaries were destroyed in early 1918, why might a brigade diary go 'walkies'? Missing 1st Black Watch Battalion diary, October, 1914 103rd Infantry Brigade diary, April 1918 Any others Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 15 July , 2021 Share Posted 15 July , 2021 Hello, I seem to remember that the war diaries of 1st Black Watch were lost in the fighting near Gheluvelt, I believe on 11 November 1914. I'll check. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 15 July , 2021 Share Posted 15 July , 2021 I recall forum posts from years back when TNA visitors would do things the old fashioned way and order the paper copy of a diary. Imagine the horror of opening the box marked X battalion Loamshires and finding the wrong diary! Once digitisation was underway some checking must have taken place but no doubt many slipped through and have been indexed/described incorrectly. I've downloaded diaries that have months of another units diary EG. 33CCS with 23CCS, ADMS diary indexed as CRA. I report these and Discovery notes the alterations. Sometimes they won't change the description due to a Key as seen policy. In other words if the cover sheet says X Battalion Loamshires while the diary is for Y Battalion Umpshires AFAIK they remain 'lost' in an indexing sense (tagged with correct unit but that requires a tag search). I would suggest some lost diaries are simply mis-described. Others lost in battle, or as you've noticed, perhaps mislaid post war by writers of official histories. Not entirely sure where the original diaries ended up as they filtered back during the war and into the post war period. Not been able to find out when they went to the PRO. Is there not a theory that diaries seized by the enemy were then seized by the Russians in WWII from German archives and could well still exist. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipman Posted 15 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 15 July , 2021 Thanks TEW. I wonder if FMP will ever have the diaries, their indexing is far superior to others. that would be helpful. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Black Posted 27 July , 2021 Share Posted 27 July , 2021 (edited) That's not a bad idea Mike. Would be a handy resource. Artillery fire probably in most cases being why they are lost. Maybe a few were deliberately destroyed to prevent them falling into enemy hands? It's not just the October diary for 1st black Watch that's missing. Septembers ends with the account of the battle of the Aisne on the 14th. The 1st Brigade diary for Nov. 1914 was also lost (recorded as by shell fire). Cheers,Derek. Edited 27 July , 2021 by Derek Black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertBr Posted 27 July , 2021 Share Posted 27 July , 2021 July - Sept 1917 are missing from 280/281 Bde RFA (56th Div) . This was when they were at Ypres and assigned to other Divisions. It was described as the worst time in the entire war for both Bdes. I did find the 281 Diary front sheet miss-filed in a Divisional War Diary. I do wonder if its content was so demoralising that it was deliberately thrown out I managed to piece together a timeline for these periods by referring to the other divisions and 56th Divisions CRA/Div HQ etc. You might be able to do something similar by looking at other Brigades/Battalions and divisional resources. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Atkins Posted 27 July , 2021 Share Posted 27 July , 2021 2nd Royal Fusiliers WD also missing for May 1915, frustratingly (I have a relative who was KIA 26/5/15), a difficult time for the battalion at Gallipoli. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David26 Posted 27 July , 2021 Share Posted 27 July , 2021 43 minutes ago, RobertBr said: July - Sept 1917 are missing from 280/281 Bde RFA (56th Div) . This was when they were at Ypres and assigned to other Divisions. It was described as the worst time in the entire war for both Bdes. I did find the 281 Diary front sheet miss-filed in a Divisional War Diary. I do wonder if its content was so demoralising that it was deliberately thrown out I managed to piece together a timeline for these periods by referring to the other divisions and 56th Divisions CRA/Div HQ etc. You might be able to do something similar by looking at other Brigades/Battalions and divisional resources. Bob My impression is that most artillery brigade and CRA war diaries for British artillery units serving in the Ypres salient are missing for these months in 1917. A previous thread suggested, if I remember correctly, that they may have been gathered together by some researcher many years ago and never returned. It's very frustrating that they all appear to be missing. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Black Posted 27 July , 2021 Share Posted 27 July , 2021 2 minutes ago, David26 said: My impression is that most artillery brigade and CRA war diaries for British artillery units serving in the Ypres salient are missing for these months in 1917. A previous thread suggested, if I remember correctly, that they may have been gathered together by some researcher many years ago and never returned. It's very frustrating that they all appear to be missing. David. If true, that's utterly tragic. Derek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 28 July , 2021 Share Posted 28 July , 2021 18 hours ago, David26 said: A previous thread suggested, if I remember correctly, @Ron Clifton Ron Clifton said: It is possible that some of the artillery diaries went missing when the Official Historian and his team were working on "1917 Volume II", which was not published until after WW2. It has been criticised as one of the weakest volumes, and it is particularly weak on covering artillery matters. There was a dispute between Sir James Edmonds, the main editor of the OH series, and Captain Miles, who drafted that volume, which might also be partly responsible for the absence of the diaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David26 Posted 29 July , 2021 Share Posted 29 July , 2021 Thanks Charlie. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 29 July , 2021 Share Posted 29 July , 2021 9th (Service) Battalion Sherwood Foresters (Nott's and Derby Regiment) - Diaries began on 1 July 1916 when they landed in France from Egypt. The diaries from July 1915 (Gallipoli) until 1 July 1916 vanished. I have searched for 20 years with no luck! I had to use Brigade diaries and first hand accounts to piece together their war prior to France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Black Posted 29 July , 2021 Share Posted 29 July , 2021 6 hours ago, stevem49 said: 9th (Service) Battalion Sherwood Foresters (Nott's and Derby Regiment) - Diaries began on 1 July 1916 when they landed in France from Egypt. The diaries from July 1915 (Gallipoli) until 1 July 1916 vanished. I have searched for 20 years with no luck! I had to use Brigade diaries and first hand accounts to piece together their war prior to France. Is there any explanation in the regimental history or at their museum, about why this is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertBr Posted 29 July , 2021 Share Posted 29 July , 2021 On 27/07/2021 at 22:04, David26 said: A previous thread suggested, if I remember correctly, that they may have been gathered together by some researcher many years ago and never returned. It's very frustrating that they all appear to be missing. I wonder if anyone has researched the reseracher! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 31 July , 2021 Share Posted 31 July , 2021 On 29/07/2021 at 16:47, Derek Black said: Is there any explanation in the regimental history or at their museum, about why this is? Nothing at all from anyone. Possibly 'lost' during the Gallipoli inquiry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lammy Posted 31 July , 2021 Share Posted 31 July , 2021 (edited) I was looking for the 1/6 HLI from 1914-17, with no luck. Turns out, or so im told they are the same as the 1/5 HLI Does anyone know anymore , is this true? Or are they missing too.? Edited 31 July , 2021 by Lammy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipman Posted 31 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 31 July , 2021 There are some 6/HLI not sure if all there https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60380/images/42871_1831101456_11770-00002?ssrc=&backlabel=Return Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David26 Posted 1 August , 2021 Share Posted 1 August , 2021 On 15/07/2021 at 07:14, Skipman said: Is there such a thing as a list of missing diaries. I dare say some battalion diaries were destroyed in early 1918, why might a brigade diary go 'walkies'? Missing 1st Black Watch Battalion diary, October, 1914 103rd Infantry Brigade diary, April 1918 Any others Mike Mike, I'm not aware of anyone having compiled a list of missing war diaries, but in case it's helpful, I am aware that the following are missing: 58 Bde RFA, 11th (Northern) Division, WO95/4298 – page(s) with entries for 3 – 8 August 1915 missing (unit at Lemnos and then en route to Gallipoli) 58 Bde RFA, 11th (Northern) Division, WO95/4298 – entries for 1 November 1915 – 30 June 1916 missing (unit at Suvla Bay, Gallipoli, withdrawl to Mudros, then to Egypt and Suez Canal, before receiving orders to proceed to France) 58 Bde RFA, 11th (Northern) Division, WO95/1800 – entries for 1 July - 30 September 1917 missing (unit in Ypres salient) 59 Bde RFA, 11th (Northern) Division, WO95/1802 – entries for 1 July – 31 August 1917 missing (unit in Ypres salient) CRA, 11th (Northern) Division, WO95/1796 – entries for 1 July - 30 September 1917 missing (CRA in Ypres salient) I have also failed to find any mention on TNA's website of a war diary for 337 Bde RFA, 18th Indian Division. And I've noticed the occasional mention over the years by other forum members of various missing diaries too. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 1 August , 2021 Share Posted 1 August , 2021 While looking for something else I found that in July 1917 the 2nd KOSB had sent their original diary with appendices to Hamilton records. A duplicate was supplied but it looks like the appendices could not be duplicated. I wasn't aware that the Regional Records also received copies (or sometimes originals). Did all units do this? 1st KOSB were also sending duplicates to Hamilton who copied the duplicate and sent the copy to Historical Section, Committee of Imperial Defence, PRO. So, the PRO were receiving duplicate diaries in 1917. Wonder what happened to the Hamilton copies and in some cases the originals? Are the present day TNA versions a mix of originals, copies of originals or duplicated copies. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Porter Posted 1 August , 2021 Share Posted 1 August , 2021 44 minutes ago, David26 said: I have also failed to find any mention on TNA's website of a war diary for 337 Bde RFA, 18th Indian Division. It is there, just has a mix up with the covering dates - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/8bdf9c1270f24fe6af6e44dba81b0189 It used to say 1917 Oct. - 1919 Sept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David26 Posted 1 August , 2021 Share Posted 1 August , 2021 3 hours ago, David Porter said: It is there, just has a mix up with the covering dates - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/8bdf9c1270f24fe6af6e44dba81b0189 It used to say 1917 Oct. - 1919 Sept. Thank you @David Porter. I'm not sure why I failed to find that. I've now downloaded a copy and found out a few more helpful details about Lt Arthur Tawse as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Black Posted 3 August , 2021 Share Posted 3 August , 2021 (edited) On 01/08/2021 at 11:16, TEW said: While looking for something else I found that in July 1917 the 2nd KOSB had sent their original diary with appendices to Hamilton records. A duplicate was supplied but it looks like the appendices could not be duplicated. I wasn't aware that the Regional Records also received copies (or sometimes originals). Did all units do this? 1st KOSB were also sending duplicates to Hamilton who copied the duplicate and sent the copy to Historical Section, Committee of Imperial Defence, PRO. So, the PRO were receiving duplicate diaries in 1917. Wonder what happened to the Hamilton copies and in some cases the originals? Are the present day TNA versions a mix of originals, copies of originals or duplicated copies. TEW A comparison would be interesting to see. The very first page of the copy at TNA compared with that at the BW museum for the 1st Bn has some slight difference. All is transcribed as written, including the scoring out and amending of a number. However the Balhousie copy has an asterisk and note in margin regarding reservists having no paperwork. I've not had the chance to compare the rest of the Balhousie copy (this first page appears on their blog), but it would be interesting to see what other differences there may be. Derek. Edited 3 August , 2021 by Derek Black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 3 August , 2021 Share Posted 3 August , 2021 Derek, both your examples are in the same hand which means both are transcriptions taken in Hamilton or Perth. One sent to PRO the other kept for regimental history. That would mean a duplicate of the original was sent from France by the battalion adjutant to the relevant records office (for copying X 2) while the original was sent down the line to the Adjutant General's office. Somewhere there should be the duplicate IE. the origin of the two transcriptions. Plus what happened to the Adjutant General's version. Surely where diaries are initialled or signed they can't be transcribed. Some TNA versions diary pages look like carbon copies but I noticed with the KOSB ones as you scan through some pages are marked Original but not all. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Black Posted 3 August , 2021 Share Posted 3 August , 2021 TEW, Thanks for that. So these are both from copies and the originals are likely lost or since destroyed? The TNA page is like a carbon copy, i reversed coloured it to make it easier to read. Cheers, Derek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Porter Posted 29 August , 2021 Share Posted 29 August , 2021 On 27/07/2021 at 22:04, David26 said: My impression is that most artillery brigade and CRA war diaries for British artillery units serving in the Ypres salient are missing for these months in 1917. Took a while, but I have complied a list of those RH & RFA diaries that are missing for the months July - September 1917 (and sometimes beyond). What is interesting is what happened with the C.R.A., 48th Division diary. I've yet to tackle the Army Brigade diaries but I'm sure there are a few more to add to this list. 33rd Brigade RFA, 8th Division, July - August 1917 45th Brigade RFA, 8th Division, July - August 1917 C.R.A., 8th Division, July 1917 58th Brigade RFA, 11th Division, July - September 1917 59th Brigade RFA, 11th Division, July - August 1917 C.R.A., 11th Division, July - September 1917 70th Brigade RFA, 15th Division, July - September 1917 71st Brigade RFA, 15th Division, July - September 1917 C.R.A., 15th Division, August - September 1917 177th Brigade RFA, 16th Division, July - October 1917 180th Brigade RFA, 16th Division, July - September 1917 C.R.A., 16th Division, July - September 1917 82nd Brigade RFA, 18th Division, July 1917 83rd Brigade RFA, 18th Division, July 1917 C.R.A., 18th Division, July - August 1917 110th Brigade RFA, 25th Division, July 1917 112th Brigade RFA, 25th Division, July 1917 C.R.A., 25th Division, July 1917 15th Brigade RHA, 29th Division, July - September 1917 17th Brigade RFA, 29th Division, July - September 1917 C.R.A., 29th Division, July - September 1917 148th Brigade RFA, 30th Division, July 1917 149th Brigade RFA, 30th Division, July 1917 C.R.A., 30th Division, July 1917 153rd Brigade RFA, 36th Division, July - September 1917 173rd Brigade RFA, 36th Division, July - September 1917 C.R.A., 36th Division, July - September 1917 121st Brigade RFA, 38th Division, July - September 1917 122nd Brigade RFA, 38th Division, July - September 1917 C.R.A., 38th Division, July - September 1917 174th Brigade RFA, 39th Division, July - December 1917 186th Brigade RFA, 39th Division, July - September 1917 C.R.A., 39th Division, August - September 1917 240th Brigade RFA, 48th Division, July - September 1917 241st Brigade RFA, 48th Division, July - September 1917 (C.R.A., 48th Division, July - September 1917 intact, Duplicates stamped March 1919) 255th Brigade RFA, 51st Division, July - September 1917 256th Brigade RFA, 51st Division, July - November 1917 C.R.A., 51st Division, July - September 1917 275th Brigade RFA, 55th Division, July - October 1917 276th Brigade RFA, 55th Division, July - September 1917 C.R.A., 55th Division, July - September 1917 280th Brigade RFA, 56th Division, July - September 1917 281st Brigade RFA, 56th Division, July - September 1917 C.R.A., 56th Division, September 1917 306th Brigade RFA, 61st Division, July - September 1917 307th Brigade RFA, 61st Division, July - September 1917 C.R.A., 61st Division, July - September 1917 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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