George Macartney Posted 15 July , 2021 Share Posted 15 July , 2021 Hi I am new to this forum so excuse me if this is not in the correct place. My grandfather Pte William Arthur Whiting was in the Royal Welch Fusiliers Reg# 13862 he was from Ogmore Vale and known as "Bow" to all his friends, I have his pension and discharge papers but cannot find his enlistment, these show he was in 11, 11 (again??) ,2, and 14th (no dates given) the problem is I am not familiar with, and in truth, a little bewildered with how soldiers moved from battalions, and then divisions have me baffled further still. He was injured just before the armistice trying to save his pal, not sure of the mans name he was trying to save or whether he survived but if someone could help me decipher where or when he fought it would be much appreciated. I have a attached a newspaper clipping from a national newspaper (not sure which one) I believe it is from around the time of my great grandfathers death in 1934, which was attributable to his injuries sustained 16 years prior. Any info would be much appreciated. In truth I am lost. Another member of the family believed he was in the 1/6th, I have no idea what this means? Please help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonraker Posted 15 July , 2021 Share Posted 15 July , 2021 Welcome to the Forum, George. "Lasts" and "Firsts" often involve lots of inconclusive debate and pedantry. See this earlier thread. It may be that Whiting was the last casualty before the Armistice commenced at 1100 - though this is impossible to prove - but there were more casualties after that, both from fighting and from the delayed mental effects of combat: a traumatised serviceman (or civilian, for that matter) who committed suicide years later would have been a casualty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 15 July , 2021 Share Posted 15 July , 2021 Forces War Records show this First Name: William Surname: Whiting Age: 24 Information: Particulars furnished: Shrewsbury, 05/04/1919. Rank: Private Service Number: 13862 Service From Date: 05/09/1914 Service To Date: 19/03/1919 Silver War Badge Number: B157468 Looking at other sites to check George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 15 July , 2021 Share Posted 15 July , 2021 Find My Past and FWR have the same dates enlisted 5-9-1914 France 5-9-1915 Discharged-disability [pension card says multiple gunshot wounds-19-3-1919 Are his discharge papers publicly available or are they his personal ones? He was admitted to First Aid/Hospital(?) 23-7-1917 with sand fly fever pyrexia [undiagnosed] In the 11th Service Battalion D Company. At the top of the page is a link to the Long Long Trail. If you follow that to Welsh (Welch) Fusiliers you will be able to find out about them George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil andrade Posted 15 July , 2021 Share Posted 15 July , 2021 George, Welcome to GWF ! That press article refers to “ the First World War “ as its closing words. To my mind , this suggests that it was written after the Second World War, rather than in 1934. I cannot be sure about this, but people normally referred to the “World War “ , or the “ Great War”, until the aftermath of the Second World War. The other thing that I want to mention is the depiction of the Western Front still being entrenched and static when the Armistice was signed . The British army was moving forward at that time and things were far more fluid . Please don’t think I’m raining on your parade : it’s a great story, and a very interesting one. It also reveals the true nature of the cost of that - and other - wars. How many lives were shortened by the trauma of 1914-18, even though the warriors were still alive in the post war decades ? The selfless qualities of people such as your great grandfather makes this damage all the more poignant to countenance. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 15 July , 2021 Share Posted 15 July , 2021 4 hours ago, George Macartney said: I have a attached a newspaper clipping from a national newspaper (not sure which one) I believe it is from around the time of my great grandfathers death in 1934, This report is written, as you say Phil, well after the end of the Great War George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil andrade Posted 15 July , 2021 Share Posted 15 July , 2021 38 minutes ago, George Rayner said: This report is written, as you say Phil, well after the end of the Great War George After the end of the Second World War ? Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie2 Posted 15 July , 2021 Share Posted 15 July , 2021 As the article quotes from Military Operations France and Belgium Vol 5 of the official history it must have been written post 1947. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonraker Posted 15 July , 2021 Share Posted 15 July , 2021 Another article (2011) here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil andrade Posted 15 July , 2021 Share Posted 15 July , 2021 55 minutes ago, charlie2 said: As the article quotes from Military Operations France and Belgium Vol 5 of the official history it must have been written post 1947. Charlie Thanks , Charlie : that puts my mind at rest. One or two commentators in the 1930s started using the title “ First World War” - Repington was one such - but they were surely exceptions, and “ World War” was generally used. I also think that the depiction of the Great War as trench bound from beginning to end gained credence in the aftermath of the Second World War, when it became more fashionable to compare the earlier conflict in a light that enhanced its reputation as static, futile and relentlessly horrific as against the relatively cheap and fast moving triumph of the second conflict. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 15 July , 2021 Share Posted 15 July , 2021 Neither of the newspaper reports of his death written at the time contain the phrase... Hartlepool Northern Daily Mail 13 September 1934 Western Mail 13 September 1934 George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 15 July , 2021 Admin Share Posted 15 July , 2021 12 hours ago, George Macartney said: I have his pension and discharge papers but cannot find his enlistment, these show he was in 11, 11 (again??) ,2, and 14th (no dates given) the problem is I am not familiar with, and in truth, a little bewildered with how soldiers moved from battalions, and then divisions have me baffled further still. Hello and welcome to the forum. First of all I recommend you have a look at the long long trail (LLT) web site link top left. In particular how to research a soldier and the section on the Army which includes the Oreder of Battle of Divisions This is the page for the Royal Welsh Fusiliers: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-welsh-fusiliers/ From this you will see the 11th Battalion was a Kitchener or (war)Service Battalion raised in the third tranche of 100,000 men. Pte Whiting's service number indicates he enlisted on the 14th September 1914 - this was a peak period for recruitment as the press reported on the 'Rape of Belgium' and German atrocities, most of which was propaganda. He trained with the Battalion as shown on the LLT link provided and landed in France with the main body of the Battalion on the 5th September 1915 (14-15 Star Medal Roll). Subsequent moves of individual soldiers occurred for many reasons, not least after wounds or sickness, on recovery they were sent where most needed. However this case is slightly different in that shortly after landing in France and before they really went into action the 22nd Division of which they were part were ordered to Salonika, embarking from Marseilles in October. The following month, the 27th Division which included the 2nd Battalion RWF were also ordered to participate in that campaign. However 91st Brigade who formed part of that Division and included the 2nd Battalion RWF did not embark with the Division but was posted to the 2nd Division in August 1915, and they remained on the Western Front for the entire war. There is a Salonika Campaign Society and that would be a very good place to start your research alongside the LLT outline of the campaign. The war diaries for Salonika have not been digitised. Returning to your soldier we do not know when, or with any certainty why, other than the ubiquitous 'exigencies of the service' he was posted to the 2nd Battalion. It appears he went with the 11th Battalion to Salonika, and was repatriated from that theatre, where malaria and sand fly fever were endemic, and on recovery posted to the BEF and 2nd Battalion. This seems the most likely but we cannot be certain of the date. The 14th Battalion was in the 38th (Welsh) Division andthey also served on the Western Front for the entire war. It is possible he was posted to that Battalion from the Infantry Base Depot and did not serve in the field with the 2nd Battalion, but at this point we just don't know for certain. The 1/6th Battalion referred to was a Territorial Force Battalion (again LLT) and there is nothing in the extant records to suggest he served with them. (The 1/6th did not serve in either of the above theatres, the second line 2/6th did not serve overseas and the 3/6th was absorbed into a Reserve Brigade - the confusion may have arisen because sick or wounded soldiers were, on recovery posted to Reserve Battalions prior to an active service posting). Further research includes casualty lists; browse through the medal rolls on Ancestry (subscription required) to see if you can find patterns for men with similar service; also local newspapers may give indications as to his service; you could also get his death certificate which may give further information. The Absent Voters List for 1918 may help to pin down which Battalion he was in when that was compiled. The war diaries for the 2nd and 14th Battalions in France have been digitised and are free to download if you register - see banner top of page. I'd suggest he was only on the Western Front in 1918, so you can ignore the earlier diaries. Check out your local library service for access to subscription sites many are offering the service at home during the pandemic. As to 'last' I would park that until you have done more research. As mentioned above it is a contentious issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIFFO Posted 15 July , 2021 Share Posted 15 July , 2021 Well it all depends on "casualty of WW1 ? about 4 years ago when they ypres works repairing the road to the left of Meningate outside Yper Inn,war horse skeletons found deep in a hole,which remained open for investigation.One of the locals came out of the Yprer a little worst for wear,fell into the hole ,banged his head and died,so you COULD say he was the last casualty other then the farmers who get blown up from time to time, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Macartney Posted 15 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 15 July , 2021 Wow what a response thank you to all of you, In answer to your questions I have the digital copies George Rayner - I'm intrigued 8 hours ago, George Rayner said: Neither of the newspaper reports of his death written at the time contain the phrase... Hartlepool Northern Daily Mail 13 September 1934 Western Mail 13 September 1934 Which phrase? Why was his death recorded in 2 newspapers far away from his home town? I have use an ancestry account but no access to newspapers 14 hours ago, Moonraker said: It may be that Whiting was the last casualty before the Armistice commenced at 1100 - though this is impossible to prove - but there were more casualties after that, both from fighting and from the delayed mental effects of combat: a traumatised serviceman (or civilian, for that matter) who committed suicide years later would have been a casualty. I appreciate that completely, I am just intrigued about where this author of this article was getting this information about my grandfather? I mean, we in the family all knew the story, though I cannot find an account of this action, I thought maybe it came from hearsay, though they even quote Great Grandfathers #, which makes me think they are working from an official account. I took it the author meant a soldier in active service, not a civilian, and wounded prior to 11 and died 16 years later from his wounds. As in the war officially ended at 11 so any deaths or injuries after ,which I completely accept there were, didn't count as the war had ended. How did they record those soldiers? My mother and grandmother told me my great grandfathers leg tore back open in the 30's which resulted in his death. So what I took the author was saying is, he was shot just prior to 11 and died 16 years later from that shot, though after all that maybe now they just mean last man shot before 11, again I completely appreciate that is impossible to prove and more than unlikely at best though again that makes me ask why did the author feel my soldier was the last casualty? Another question is, I have often thought would you not receive a medal for such bravery? Thank you for all your help and thanks for taking the time to respond. and yes that article from Wales is my cousin Ray that is where I got the 1/6th from but all my records show different 12 hours ago, phil andrade said: Military Operations France and Belgium Vol 5 of the official history Is this the account the journalist worked from ? Thank you so much everyone my mind is racing with questions Can I post the records on here? Not sure if that is ok or not? Maybe you guys could make more sense of them than me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Macartney Posted 15 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 15 July , 2021 Thank you all!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Macartney Posted 15 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 15 July , 2021 16 hours ago, George Rayner said: Are his discharge papers publicly available or are they his personal ones? Everything I have is online Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Macartney Posted 15 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 15 July , 2021 9 hours ago, kenf48 said: As to 'last' I would park that until you have done more research. As mentioned above it is a contentious issue. Just thought it might ***** a few ears, I think it more than highly unlikely but do wonder if there is an official account of this action. Ken this is all great stuff thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Macartney Posted 15 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 15 July , 2021 17 hours ago, George Rayner said: He was admitted to First Aid/Hospital(?) 23-7-1917 with sand fly fever pyrexia [undiagnosed] Amazing thanks, where can I see this George? So I guess this kind of fits with him being in Salonika at that time then, and as Ken I think pointed out he may have then ben repatriated back to the 2nd temporarily then to the 14th, I always thought he was in France all the way. Absolutely amazing. Please put me right if that is all wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonraker Posted 16 July , 2021 Share Posted 16 July , 2021 9 hours ago, George Macartney said: ... As in the war officially ended at 11 so any deaths or injuries after ,which I completely accept there were, didn't count as the war had ended. How did they record those soldiers? ... Pedantically, the war did not officially end on November 11 - that date saw only an Armistice. See earlier GWF thread Gov.UK The Commonwealth War Graves Commission states: "The 31st August 1921 is the official end of war (as per the Order in Council that declared the war ended, as required by the Termination of the Present War (Definition) Act." I believe that that date is the cut-off for the CWGC's record of WWI deaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 16 July , 2021 Share Posted 16 July , 2021 22 hours ago, phil andrade said: “ First World War” Is the phrase I was thinking of. The whole newspaper reports are The sand fly reference I found here thanks due to FWR First Name: W Surname: Whiting Age: 24 Index Number of Admission: 17553 Rank: Private Service Number: 13862 Years Service: 2 years 11 months Months With Field Force: 2 years Ailment: Sandfly Fever. Not Yet Diagnosed (Pyrexia) Date of Admission for Original Ailment: 23/07/1917 Date Transferred to Sick Convoy: 24/07/1917 Number/Designation of Ward: D2 Religion: Church of England Regiment: Royal Welsh Fusiliers Battalion: 11th (Service) Battalion (Why is this important?) Other unit info: D Company Archive Reference: MH106/616 MH106/616 can be found at The National Archives in Kew, and contains First World War Representative Medical Records of Servicemen from No. 31 Casualty Clearing Station Record Details for William Whiting (Royal Welsh Fusiliers) (forces-war-records.co.uk) George 8 hours ago, George Macartney said: On 15/07/2021 at 06:59, George Rayner said: Are his discharge papers publicly available or are they his personal ones? Everything I have is online Can you post a link please? I can't find it ... George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie2 Posted 16 July , 2021 Share Posted 16 July , 2021 10 hours ago, George Macartney said: Is this the account the journalist worked from ? The quote from the official history was just used to enhance the article, it has no bearing on anyone in particular. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Macartney Posted 16 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 16 July , 2021 Thank you Charlie! And George that is amazing thank you so much. Not sure I can afford another subscription at this point for forces war records, I have been thinking of joining find my past on a trial are these Forces war records available on there or is it a standalone service? When I say publicly available they were available on Ancestry. Having looked again I have pension record cards stating his discharge and medal roll cards. My apologies for any confusion. I have been looking at the LLT and subscribed to the TNA as advised Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 16 July , 2021 Share Posted 16 July , 2021 Given a choice I wouldn't subscribe to Forces War Records...I'd go for Find My Past by preference. This is a personal opinion only. I have no interest in either company.! George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KernelPanic Posted 16 July , 2021 Share Posted 16 July , 2021 If you haven't seen it yet, this article on the Long Long Trail might be helpful at deciding between these various sites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Macartney Posted 16 July , 2021 Author Share Posted 16 July , 2021 15 hours ago, Moonraker said: Pedantically, the war did not officially end on November 11 - that date saw only an Armistice. When it is remembered by the people is more important to me than technicalities, we don't all stop for 2 minutes on the 31 August after all, really interesting stuff though Moonraker, love it, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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