What was Done with German PoW's Webbing etc.

[Derek Black]

When soldiers were captured, what was done with the webbing, rifles and any other equipment that was taken off them?

Obviously some would be pilfered by soldiers, but what happened to the bulk of it, what was the plan for dealing with enemy gear, where did it end up going?

 

Cheers,
Derek.

[AOK4]

Germany reused a lot of the stuff somehow. I don't know about small equipment (webbing etc), but rifles, Lewis guns and tanks were used by their own units. I would assume that metal gear (entrenching tools, helmets etc) was just melted down. Boots and other equipment were just taken (even from dead) to be used immediately. Ernst Jünger for one was shot by one of his own men when wearing a captured British greatcoat in 1918.

I assume the webbing was also recycled for the fibres.

There's an excellent book about this, La grande débrouille, by Jean-Claude Laparra. I should have it somewhere, but I can't seem to find it right now.

Jan

[GreyC]

Here you have a photo of the captured stuff from a stormtroopers spree into enemy territory.

The second photo shows Feldwebell-Leutnant Henneking, in charge of one of the German "Beute-Depots" (booty-depot).

GreyC

[Derek Black]

Thanks gentlemen,

I hadn't thought they would use the clothing or webbing, as it would make things confusing on the battlefield. Just like the story of  Ernst being shot by his own men.

Cheers,
Derek.

[Pete_C]

Germans pose with captured British weapons and equipment, circa 1916 -  rifles, web equipment, gas helmet, great coat, GS shovel and a trench periscope. Good safety discipline on display with all rifles bolts left conspicuously open. I can only speculate as to what use, if any, they were put to by the Germans, but I doubt very little was recycled for front line use. The only overt use of British kit I’m aware of is the taking of boots from British casualties during the 1918 Spring offensive. The many German photographs of British dead from the offensive indicate boots were nearly always plundered, even before the action moved on.

Pete

 

[GreyC]

Nice photo!

The German soldiers seem to be from a train unit, maybe field-artillery.

I know they used enemy machine guns and they even had special units that were solely equipped with captured guns from the enemy artillery.

GreyC

Edited 13 July , 2021 by GreyC

[Pete_C]

Another photo of captured British weapons and equipment. This is likely late 1916 or early 1917 - I’d say no later than that as several of the rifles are the Mk1 * pattern which were effectively obsolete by this time - and no earlier because of the SBR’s on display. Again, good weapons safety discipline evident with rifle bolts left open. I’ve read that the Germans prized captured Lewis guns but I’ve never seen any photographic evidence of them being used in the front line.

Pete

 

[Derek Black]

Good photos.

I've not seen photos of booty dumps by the British, usually just the odd helmet or jacket being worn. No doubt there's some out there.

Cheers,
Derek.

[FROGSMILE]

The British Army’s 34th Divisional Salvage Company which was active on the Somme during July 1916 and during that period it recovered:

Rifles – 12,998
Bayonets – 6,050
Revolvers – 8
Very Pistols – 28
Machine Guns – 51
Trench Mortars – 12
Small Arms Ammunition – 1,580,000 rounds
S.A.A. fired cases – 145,000
Bombs – 40,000
Sets of equipment complete – 5,500
Groundsheets – 700
Steel Helmets – 9,869
Gas Masks – 13,280
Picks & shovels – 2,000
Wire Cutters – 950
Bully Beef Tins – 16,000
Bagpipes – 6 sets

Total value of one months salvage = £1,500,000.

Edited 14 July , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

Hi Frogsmile,

if I understand correctly, the salvage unit would collect material from both sides of the fences?

Best,

GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, GreyC said:

Hi Frogsmile,

if I understand correctly, the salvage unit would collect material from both sides of the fences?

Best,

GreyC

I am not at all sure.  Probably not when they were first established circa 1916, but I think that possibly changed by the last year of the war.  I doubt that it was as well organised as the German efforts shown in the photos in this thread.  The priority would most likely have been for British and associated equipment, not least because of differences in calibres of ammunition.

Edited 14 July , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

In the German army there was even an infantry battailon that belonged to the 117th Reg. in the second half of the war that was officially equipped with 32 Lewis guns. Other units had (in part) French machine guns, that were used, but only as welcomed unofficial supplements.

GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

39 minutes ago, GreyC said:

In the German army there was even an infantry battailon that belonged to the 117th Reg. in the second half of the war that was officially equipped with 32 Lewis guns. Other units had (in part) French machine guns, that were used, but only as welcomed unofficial supplements.

GreyC

Yes I can understand that and it was a tactically sound and typically kampfgruppe type policy, whereby improvising what was usefully available was deeply ingrained in the German military psyche and methodology.  The Lewis gun was an especially useful close quarters trench weapon, as the drum magazine provided a degree of protection to the ammunition that a belt feed did not, especially when advancing through mud, although care still had to be taken.  Also it’s lightness, pistol grip and protective barrel casing enabled easier handling.  In short it was ideal for the fast moving infiltration tactics that proved so effective for sturm truppen.

Edited 14 July , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Derek Black]

Good photos Froggy.

So, the Germans used as much of the British kit as they could and broke and recycled the rest, whereas the British didn't use German gear, but did recycle the materials recoverd?

Would this be roughly correct?

Cheers,
Derek.

[FROGSMILE]

26 minutes ago, Derek Black said:

Good photos Froggy.

So, the Germans used as much of the British kit as they could and broke and recycled the rest, whereas the British didn't use German gear, but did recycle the materials recoverd?

Would this be roughly correct?

Cheers,
Derek.

Approximately yes.  Although there were many impromptu examples of captured German maxim guns turned and used against their former owners, I’ve not found any recorded instances of this being formally organised as a British tactical policy at formation level in the way that it was for the German military.  It isn’t an exaggeration to say that it was a cultural thing.  There were numerous similar examples during WW2 and in WW1 it didn’t just stop with small arms, there was  a fairly infamous incident whereby the German Army was able to create a small tank force using captured British tanks.

Edited 14 July , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Derek Black]

Thanks,

 

That's an interesting difference in approach between the sides.

 

Cheers,
Derek.

[GreyC]

German fortresses were manned with Belgian guns, German artillery units had Russian guns and before the aforementioned battailon used Lewis guns they were equipped with Danish Madsens that had previously been sold to the Russians from where they found their way into the German unit where they were used until they broke down.

Attached from my collection two photos of Germans with French (St. Etienne) and Russian (Maxim) machine guns.

GreYC

 

[AOK4]

Plenty of Landwehr and Landsturm units were equipped with Russian Moisin Nagant rifles and I've also seen French Lebels with German markings. I've read regimental histories in which they mention the use of British Lee Enfields in the front line for sniping because their own ammo was strictly rationed...

Jan

[Andrew Upton]

7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Approximately yes.  Although there were many impromptu examples of captured German maxim guns turned and used against their former owners, I’ve not found any recorded instances of this being formally organised as a British tactical policy at formation level in the way that it was for the German military...

Britain made some use of captured German Maxim guns of various types that were converted to British .303 - The Devil's Paintbrush, Goldsmith, 2002, page 129 which I've attached below covers this. Page 130 also provides some details on the German equivalent programme of converting British Maxims to fire 7.92mm ammunition. With Lewis guns in German service, the Germans had quite an extensive conversion programme to do the same. The Belgian Rattlesnake, Easterleigh, 1998, pages 205-210 covers this in a lot of detail, I've attached page 206 as an example:

[Derek Black]

Thanks Andrew,

 

I like that chapter name!

 

Cheers,

Derek.

[FROGSMILE]

That’s interesting Andrew.  So they were discontinued in June 1917, do you know when their converted usage commenced, was it after the 1916 Somme battles?  I don’t think we were very successful at capturing anything in substantial numbers before that to justify the effort, but I don’t possess the book.  I’m assuming that you do since you’ve made the comment so I’d be interested to know please?  Also what was the extent and organisation of the issues?  Was it just to one Army so that they could be logistically concentrated and supported?  Or was it just one of the Corps? It would have been difficult to support them sufficiently (spares, etc.) if their issue was not properly thought out and an organisation to support them put in place.  It’s quite intriguing to consider why they were discontinued and after how long in use.  The text refers to “a small number in use” of A, B and C types, which seems to militate against a substantial and organised usage?

@Andrew Upton, grateful for the simple courtesy of a reply?

 

 

Edited 14 July , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Derek Black said:

Thanks Andrew,

 

I like that chapter name!

 

Cheers,

Derek.

We need a lot more information about the scale and degree of organised tactical usage Derek.  What usage there was is almost certainly largely as a stop gap during the embarrassing period when the British government were unable to scale up manufacture to meet demand.  Making temporary use of captured German stocks to fire British ammunition would have been cost effective as an interim measure until sufficient Vickers Guns could be procured.

Edited 14 July , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

With regards to the German way of doing things, when the Russian Madsen guns were worn out, destroyed or captured by the British, they replaced them with the newly won Lewis-guns. So they used them as long as possible and then just replaced them. I know that smaller repairs were done by the army weapon-smiths.

GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, GreyC said:

With regards to the German way of doing things, when the Russian Madsen guns were worn out, destroyed or captured by the British, they replaced them with the newly won Lewis-guns. So they used them as long as possible and then just replaced them. I know that smaller repairs were done by the army weapon-smiths.

GreyC

Yes the key thing with German usage is that it was tactically organised with a carefully thought out methodology intended to contribute to a given end or aim.  A form of what later became known as auftragstaktik.

Edited 14 July , 2021 by FROGSMILE