Austro-Hungarian use of German-made M16 helmets

[FtrPlt]

Greetings all,
I'm doing a bit of research on the A-H use of German-made helmets. Obviously they were purchased from Germany in very large numbers so my query is more to do with the  color. Conventional wisdom suggests they were bought ready-to-wear -- ie they were field grey with German liners and chinstraps.

However, I've come across a few brown painted M16 helmets. Again, not a big  deal as I'm sure helmets were recycled and reused. My curiosity comes from a helmet I saw at a flea market. German M16 but brown with M17 liner band. Triangular stamp near the right chinstrap lug. Not really readable beyond UO and what looks like Csepel.

Did some internet searching and found a similar helmet on "Brendon's Helmets" website. Another brown M16 with a similar triangular stamp (Cilli). This one had the M91 chinstrap lugs replaced with A-H M-17 style bales.

I'm familiar with the acceptance/inspection stamps on A-H helmets -- their square stamp appears standardized with only the location on the bottom line being different.

Reference books suggest there was a chronic shortage of steel helmets with purchased from Germany still being made into 1918. Given these shortages, plus the fact hat steel helmets are generally pretty simple, mechanically, as well as reasonably robust, most repairs could be easily accomplished at company/battalion/regimental level. Replacebles are literally chinstraps and liners. Not sure how much emphasis was on appearance but paint touch ups could probably also be done at the local level.

The helmets I've described seem much more like depot level work. The helmet I saw did not seem like there was underlying field grey so I'm curious if it was stripped and repainted, modified for A-H bales, etc. Then stamped as refurbished/repaired?

Along the same lines, there don't appear to be many brown M16 helmets around in collections (at least ones I can find online). Given that nearly 40% of the total helmets used by Austro-Hungary were purchased German-made helmets, it seems odd there aren't more in collections.

Any insight on the triangular stamps vs the square ones?
Triangular stamp format:
R.
St. UO
location

versus the square stamps on A-H produced helmets:
UO
K.M. 13 St. H.
location

[FROGSMILE]

I wish you luck with your highly specialised research.  Just a thought: I think that the steel helmets would originally have been provided under contract already painted in the colour required by the Hungarian Army at the time in order to match with their uniform, which was pike grey and field grey.  During WW2 the Hungarians under Horthy were once again aligned with Germany and many of the WW1 helmets were reused as I understand it.  Presumably they might have been repainted brown at that time and I imagine that a great many would have been lost in Russia, thus contributing to the shortage of surviving examples that you’ve mentioned.

Edited 29 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FtrPlt]

There is not a lot of specific information on the German-made helmets purchased by Austro-Hungary. Magyar Front magazine does a nice story about Hungarian helmets and they include the WW1 Austro-Hungarian helmets. They suggest the helmets were field grey (pages 3 and 4). I have read similar comments in other publications. NOTE: none of the articles provide any documentation. Clearly Austro-Hungarian produced M17 and Berndorfer helmets were painted brown at the factories. Hungary appears to have continued to use a similar color into WW2.
https://newfront.ca/data/documents/MAGYAR-FRONT-SPRING-2012.pdf

This helmet is a German-made ET64 helmet. It has A-H chinstrap bales in the place of the original German M91 chinstrap lugs. Notice the stamp -- indicating Cilli. This was the location of the A Westen helmet manufacturer. Interesting is this stamp is not the normal, square acceptance stamp. About a month ago, I saw a similar helmet (not as nice) that was also brown but still had the original M91 chinstrap attachments. The triangle label wasn't as clear but I think the bottom line on that was was Csepel -- which is the town where Manfred Weiss helmets were produced.

The three photos are from "Brendon's Helmets" website.

Edited 29 June , 2021 by FtrPlt

[FtrPlt]

The typical stamp on Austro-Hungarian helmets is this square shape. Only the last line is different -- the town where the helmet was inspected. Second image shows the stamp for an  A-H helmet produced in Cilli. Notice this is very different from the triangle stamp in the brown M16 helmet.
Ü.O. -- Übernahms Organ.
K.M. 13  St. H.   --- Kriegs Ministerium  13 (Abteilung)  Stahl Helm
Cilli

[FROGSMILE]

The only comment I can respond with is that it seems unlikely that the helmets would have been painted brown in WW1, as that would have clashed substantially with their uniforms.  Also no contemporary artworks seem to show headdress, including helmets, in brown.

It seems more likely to me to be a WW2 practice, but perhaps often on refurbished helmets from WW1.  It might be useful to see what the museums in Hungary show if they have any unadulterated helmets with provenance of not having been repainted since WW1.  Are the stamps linked indisputably to specific dates? 

Edited 29 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FtrPlt]

It is well documented that all helmets produced in Austro-Hungary during WW1 were brown.

I am trying to understand under what circumstances a German M16 (or M18) helmet in use by the KuK was repainted and received a triangular stamp

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, FtrPlt said:

It is well documented that all helmets produced in Austro-Hungary during WW1 were brown.

I am trying to understand under what circumstances a German M16 (or M18) helmet in use by the KuK was repainted and received a triangular stamp

That’s interesting and not something that I’d noticed before.

 I wish you well with your research.  Clearly  it’s a very specialised area of research.  You might find the answer on a German or Hungarian language website.

I recommend this English language website: http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/index.htm

And suggest you contact the webmaster (Glenn Jewison) and his collaborator (Jorg Steiner) as shown on the enclosed image.

Edited 29 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FtrPlt]

via Heeresgeschichtliches Museum, Vienna
This would be typical late war KuK feldgrau uniform and Austrian-made M17 helmet (brown)

 

Edited 29 June , 2021 by FtrPlt

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, FtrPlt said:

via Heeresgeschichtliches Museum, Vienna
This would be typical late war KuK feldgrau uniform and Austrian-made M17 helmet (brown)

 

Thank you for the image, but to my eyes there’s absolutely no difference between the shade of the uniform and that of the helmet.  As we know the uniform wasn’t brown it looks in this case as if the colour rendition is distorted.  

However, none of this is to dispute what you’ve said, just that this particular photo isn’t convincing.  The larger enclosed artwork certainly reflects a colour contrast, but it's not especially stark so it's difficult to define (perhaps a greenish brown?).  The smaller artwork gives a much clearer impression.

I hope that you find the contact details I’ve posted above of use.  They relate to two men who are absolutely devoted to the history of the KuK and other associated forces, and that includes their uniforms and equipment.

Edited 29 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FtrPlt]

You'll find that the term "feldgrau" encompass a wide range of colors with individual garments varying due to washing, age, exposure, dirt, color shift over time, etc.
 

 

[FtrPlt]

feldgrau

[FtrPlt]

feldgrau hat showing color shift from exposure vs original color not exposed to light.

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you that’s very interesting and I entirely understand and accept your point.  It’s not a phenomenon that I’m unfamiliar with, but the precise colour change in this case is a surprise to me.

Edited 29 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FtrPlt]

Just to close this out, for those who might be interested.

The Austro-Hungarians purchased German-made M16 helmets as both ready-wear (German field gray, German liners, German chinstraps) and as shells -- the latter being painted brown and having AH liners and chinstrap mounts, and chinstraps added.

Additionally, the Austro-Hungarians also recovered and refurbished previously issued helmets. These helmets were refurbished by two helmet makers -- one in Cilli and one in Brunn. The refurbished M16 helmets had a triangular stamp near the left chinstrap attachment.

M16 shells purchased from Germany had AH chinstrap bales in lieu of the German M91 chinstrap lug; were painted brown; and had AH liners added. They had the standard square KuK acceptance stamp near the left chinstrap attach. A. Weston in Cilli was the only company completing German-made shells