Militia early Discharge

[Ian McCallum]

Hi Guys

 

Not quite the Great War but the man ended up enlisting as a Special Reservist in August 1914.

 

In December 1904  having completed his colour and reserve commitment, signed on for 4 year with the Militia.

On his attestation form he was assigned to the  4th (Volunteer) Bn. Scottish Rifles a Rifle Volunteer battalion based in Glasgow.

 

He was then discharged from the battalion under Mil Regs 1904 Para 428 (a) on 6 February 1905.

 

Can anyone tell me was this Regulation and para is. I can't find anything on web.

 

I also thought the Militia was basically a part of a regiment's 3rd or depot battalion.

 

Any help appreciated.

 

Ian 

[Keith_history_buff]

Hi Iain,

Please can you give a quick outline as to his WW1 service, so that the thread does not get locked.

Where did you find his service record? Is this within the WO 96 records, or is it within the WO 363/4 records? It seems peculiar if he started with the Volunteers but then ended up in the Militia.

For the county infantry regiment that I have researched, it was indeed the case that in 1914 all spare men, be they Army Reserve, Special Reserve or colour-serving would find themselves in the 3rd battalion, to be used as a pool for sending drafts to the 1st and 2nd battalion. In many cases the 4th Battalion would be soldiers who had engaged under Territorial Force terms of service. 

Thanks
Keith

[Ian McCallum]

Hi Keith.

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

My man enlisted first in 1879 aged 19. Did seven years colours and five in reserve. He was recalled as a reservist for South Africa 1899-1902. He signed on with Militia / Volunteers for one year 1904-05. On 9 August 1914 signed on aged 44 years and 20 days. Army Reservist (Special Reservists)One Year's Service form. He did almost one year in Flanders with Royal Scots before being transferred to ASC. He was demobbed April 1919 aged almost 50 years.

 

In December 1904, two years after getting back from South Africa, he signed on for four years with the Militia on Form E504 and was assigned to 4th (Volunteer) Bn. Scottish Rifles. In February 1905, he was discharged. According to his forms he was discharged under Mil Regs 1904 Para 428 (a).

 

I can't find the relevant  Mil Reg and Para no to find out why he was discharged so early.

 

His papers came from Militia Attestation Papers 1806 - 1915 WO96

 

Ian

[Keith_history_buff]

Hi Iain,

I'm not that familiar with Territorials. As I understand it, their pre-1914 service records do not survive?

It's interesting to see that as of 1908, the Cameronians had a 4th (Extra Reserve) Battalion, with TF men in the 5th, 6th, 7th & 8th Battalions. The 8th had its roots in the 4th Volunteer Battalion.

It seems peculiar that he was discharged only 3 months into his engagement with the Militia - unless if it was to take up a similar engagement under Volunteer terms of service? Purely supposition, but it does not make sense.

Hope you get an answer to this puzzle.

Thanks
Keith 

[FROGSMILE]

12 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Hi Iain,

I'm not that familiar with Territorials. As I understand it, their pre-1914 service records do not survive?

It's interesting to see that as of 1908, the Cameronians had a 4th (Extra Reserve) Battalion, with TF men in the 5th, 6th, 7th & 8th Battalions. The 8th had its roots in the 4th Volunteer Battalion.

It seems peculiar that he was discharged only 3 months into his engagement with the Militia - unless if it was to take up a similar engagement under Volunteer terms of service? Purely supposition, but it does not make sense.

Hope you get an answer to this puzzle.

Thanks
Keith 

I think you’re correct Keith.  If changing from Militia to the Volunteer Force he would have had to discharge from the first before engaging with the second, as they operated under entirely different terms and conditions of service.  Until 1908 (and the formation of the Territorial Force which resolved matters), whereas the Militia came under military law only when embodied, the Volunteer Force did not come under military law at all, mobilised or not.  This troubling anomaly was controversial and raised in the House of Commons on more than one occasion.  Ergo the terms were very different and under statute a transfer between one auxiliary force and another required a set series of protocols to take place.  It seems likely that, just as you’ve suggested, it was the same situation with the subject of this thread.

Edited 19 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Ian McCallum]

Hi. Thanks for your contribution.

The Militia attestation form of December 1904 clearly shows him signing on with the Militia for 4 years. The same form shows him being assigned to the 4th (Volunteer) Bn. Scottish Rifles. The same form shows his attestation being approved by the Approving Officer at Hamilton Barracks on 6 March 1905, the same day as his discharge under Mil Regs 1904 Para 428 (a). Perhaps if we could find out what the regulation is it would help solve the mystery.

 

Ian

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, Ian McCallum said:

Hi. Thanks for your contribution.

The Militia attestation form of December 1904 clearly shows him signing on with the Militia for 4 years. The same form shows him being assigned to the 4th (Volunteer) Bn. Scottish Rifles. The same form shows his attestation being approved by the Approving Officer at Hamilton Barracks on 6 March 1905, the same day as his discharge under Mil Regs 1904 Para 428 (a). Perhaps if we could find out what the regulation is it would help solve the mystery.

 

Ian

 

 

Do you mean King’s Regulations rather than ‘Military Regulations’, Ian.  What you’ve described is certainly a conundrum, as the Militia and Volunteer battalions were entirely different sections of the Crown’s ‘auxiliary forces’, with significantly different roles, and (as mentioned) different terms and conditions of service.  There are copies of King’s Regulations and Pay Warrants accessible online.   See the section on Army Regulations, Equipment, Manuals etc. here: https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Military_periodicals_online

Edited 19 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Ian McCallum]

Hi Guys

 

Thanks for your time and interest.

 

Sorry to keep this going but I thought a picture paints etc.

 

Here is the forms in question. I thought you may be able to deduce something from them.

 

Also on the second page of the document his application is Approved by the Approving Office at HQ in Hamilton. But its the same date that he is discharged. 

 

The third shows that the clerk has just called the regulations Mil Regs 428 (a) 

 

Thanks again for your interest.

 

Ian

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

I don’t understand where you have the idea this is an enlistment into a Volunteer Battalion.  It shows that he has previous short service engagement with the Royal Scots and is now enlisting with the 4th Militia Battalion of the Cameronian’s (Scottish Rifles) that had formerly (i.e. prior to the Cardwell/Childers Reforms) been the 2nd Royal Lanarkshire Regiment.

 

NB.  It might be that you are confused by the fact that the Volunteer Force unit numbering sequence of that time was stand alone, which meant there was a 4th (Volunteer) Battalion and a 4th (Militia) Battalion simultaneously.  For the exact same reason there was also a 1st (Volunteer) Battalion as well as the 1st (regular) Battalion.

Edited 19 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Ian McCallum]

Right. I didn't realise there were two 4th Bn. Scottish Rifles so that indeed makes more sense. Thanks for that.

 

Ian

[FROGSMILE]

11 hours ago, Ian McCallum said:

Right. I didn't realise there were two 4th Bn. Scottish Rifles so that indeed makes more sense. Thanks for that.

 

Ian

Quite understandable, it often catches researchers out if they’re not familiar with the effect of various reforms.  It wasn’t until the Haldane Reforms and his creation of the Territorial Force in 1908 that all the battalions ran in a single, sequential numbering system from first to last.

Edited 20 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE