How can I be sure?

[Karennz]

I have posted in here before quite a few years ago and havent really got much further. I have a medal card and a record of a medal awarded. My Grandad Robert Powell Owen was in the ARmy WW1 - We dont know if he was in a different regiment before going into the Cameron Highlanders? There are 2 other medal card Indexes which also have Robert P Owen.  How would I find out if they are my grandfather or some other Robert P Owen?

Ive attached the index cards below.

Someone did answer my question regarding we always knew Grandad had been in India and Cameron Highlanders were there until 1921? so he probably came home from there. (Guessing)

Ive heard that if they left 1 regiment they got a new service record number or is that not true so he only served in Iraq 1919?

Any help Much Appreciated. I do all my searching online as Im in New Zealand (Happily)

Regards

Karen Atkinson

 

 

 

 

[Michelle Young]

Links above to all previous posts to avoid repetition of answers.

[busterfield]

Are you saying that the person in the Cameron Highlanders from Welwyn herts. is your Grandfather ? if so going from 1901 census records from familysearch he was born 1900/1901 and tight for war service. There is another partial service record from familysearch with full name and near DOB.

 

 

 

[Jim Strawbridge]

The Middlesex Regiment MIC will not relate to your grandfather. The card shows that Robert P. Owen died of wounds. The third MIC seems correct but has no bearing with WW1 in that it records the award of the General Service Medal with clasp IRAQ. This implies that he was more of a career soldier. The MIC to Royal Welsh Fusiliers may or may not relate to your grandfather. Your grandfathers date of birth may be helpful to see whether he was of an age to have served in WW1

[PRC]

If it is the Cameron Highlanders man then the 7-digit service number shown comes from the 1920 Army renumbering - from then on each soldier would have a unique service number that would stay with him throughout his time in the Army, regardless of unit served with. 2922731 came from the number block allocated to men already serving with the Cameron Highlanders.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/new-british-army-numbers-issued-in-1920/

It he was in at the time of the 1920 renumbering then likely his service records were retained by the Ministry of Defence.

 

The MoD had a press release a few years back that listed the names and service numbers of all the men born before 1901 whose records they retained. I believe it's now available as a database on Ancestry. So if you can find 2922731 on there it should give you a date of birth which hopefully will either rule him in or out as a candidate for your grandfather. Of course if he was born 1901 or later then it would be a question of taking a gamble and paying for a copy of the service records.

 

The process for applying for service records from the MoD is set out here:- https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Karennz,

 

He was born in May 1900 in Welwyn Garden City you say?

Also he was definitely in the Camerons? How do you know this for certain?

If that fragment from the Camerons medal roll relates to him, then you will see he has a 7 digit number suggesting post 1921 service and possibly surviving records. See PRCs post.

 

Look for him here in Attachments 1-8.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/foi-responses-released-by-mod-week-commencing-1-december-2014

Edited 9 June , 2021 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Karennz]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

If it is the Cameron Highlanders man then the 7-digit service number shown comes from the 1920 Army renumbering - from then on each soldier would have a unique service number that would stay with him throughout his time in the Army, regardless of unit served with. 2922731 came from the number block allocated to men already serving with the Cameron Highlanders.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/new-british-army-numbers-issued-in-1920/

It he was in at the time of the 1920 renumbering then likely his service records were retained by the Ministry of Defence.

 

The MoD had a press release a few years back that listed the names and service numbers of all the men born before 1901 whose records they retained. I believe it's now available as a database on Ancestry. So if you can find 2922731 on there it should give you a date of birth which hopefully will either rule him in or out as a candidate for your grandfather. Of course if he was born 1901 or later then it would be a question of taking a gamble and paying for a copy of the service records.

 

The process for applying for service records from the MoD is set out here:- https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records

 

Cheers,

Peter

Hi Peter

Thanks for this I have just gone through all those records. He definately was in the Cameron Highlanders and the medal index card for them was for him as was the GSM record in 1924. I was trying to find out when he went into the army. I have been told that army records were destroyed so not sure if its worth paying for service records. But I have a bit more to go on now thanks

Karen

[Karennz]

1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

K arennz,

 

He was born in May 1900 in Welwyn Garden City you say?

Also he was definitely in the Camerons? How do you know this for certain?

If that fragment from the Camerons medal roll relates to him, then you will see he has a 7 digit number suggesting post 1921 service and possibly surviving records. See PRCs post.

 

Look for him here in Attachments 1-8.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/foi-responses-released-by-mod-week-commencing-1-december-2014

HI  Dai

I know he was born in Welwyn - HIgh Street I have his birth certificate and he travelled to NZ with us in 1965.  My Dad said he was in the Cameron Highlanders and very proud of it and he came home from India. Im told they were in India. I had a look in the attachments thanks to you and Peter for pointing that out. He isnt listed. 

thanks for the info im more knowledgable than i was before.

Regards Karen

[Karennz]

2 hours ago, busterfield said:

Are you saying that the person in the Cameron Highlanders from Welwyn herts. is your Grandfather ? if so going from 1901 census records from familysearch he was born 1900/1901 and tight for war service. There is another partial service record from familysearch with full name and near DOB.

 

Hi there

Yes this is him thank you - His Dad was the chemist is Welwyn High Street- This is more info so thank you so much 

regards

Karen

[Karennz]

Thank you everyone I have more info now - Never thought to look in Family Search 

Kindest regards

Karen

NZ

[Matlock1418]

7 hours ago, Karennz said:

I have been told that army records were destroyed so not sure if its worth paying for service records.

Karen,

Welcome back!

As @PRC and @Dai Bach y Sowldiwr have commented - there are potentially surviving Army Service Records still with the Ministry of Defence.

For pre & post-WW1 soldiers with up to c.1900 births those records were kept separately from those Pre-war/Wartime records that were subsequently destroyed by bombing and fire in WW2

I believe the FOI info is perhaps not quite 100% complete.

= Others here on GWF may perhaps be able to tell you more definitively upfront if his number survives.

You have been provided with the appropriate weblink to make an application [but be prepared for a long wait - I suspect in excess of 12 months is a possibility]

I wouldn't give up all hope on a SR just yet.

Good luck

:-) M

Edited 9 June , 2021 by Matlock1418

[PRC]

11 hours ago, Karennz said:

My Dad said he was in the Cameron Highlanders and very proud of it and he came home from India. Im told they were in India.

 

Hi Karen,

 

My understanding is that he would have qualified for the Indian General Service Medal with the clasp for Iraq because the campaign was run by the Indian Government. Edit - see correction below from @BullerTurner. The troops would have been those of the Indian Army - but the backbone of that was British Army troops "on loan" and paid for by India. Prior to the Great War most of the County Regiments would have had one of their Regular Army Battalions stationed in India, often for a decade or more. During the Great War India served as the rear base area for the campaign in Mesopotamia, (modern day Iraq), providing the longer term medical facilities for those who had been wounded or fallen sick, as well as Regimental Depots for the receipt and advanced training of drafts sent out from the UK and fit again convalescents. It is likely something similar applied when the British Army went back into Iraq in 1920 to quell an armed rebellion. The cost in terms of lives as well as to the Exchequer meant that subsequently the RAF was used to bomb rebel strongholds and villages into surrender rather than have the Army maintain a large standing garrison. It's likely that units like the Cameron Highlanders would then have returned to become part of the garrison in India.

 

The 1st Battalion were sent out to India in 1919, so would have been available to take part in that operation.

 

The Service Medal Roll shows him as attached to the Headquarters of the 6th Division. This would have been the Indian Army 6th Division, not the British Army one. It had originally ceased to exist with the fall of Kut in April 1916, when both the British and Indian troops who made up the Division marched into captivity. According to Wikipedia it was resurrected in 1920 to take part in the suppression of the Iraq rebellion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_(Poona)_Division

11 hours ago, Karennz said:

I was trying to find out when he went into the army.

 

I see you have a confirmed date of birth of the 26th May 1900 from birth certificate. Of course there are always exceptions but assuming he following the normal path he would have been called up within 3 months of reaching his 18th birthday - so 26th May 1918 at the earliest. Even before the passing of the Military Service Act in 1916 which introduced conscription, the UK Government had insisted the Army tighten up on the requirement not to send other ranks overseas before they reached 19. The age limit was brought down slightly in the late spring and early summer of 1918 as a result of the horrendous losses suffered during the German Spring Offensive in France & Flanders - but not so low as to mean that Robert would have been sent out. As things settled down and with the arrival in Theatre of American troops, that minimum age of 19 became the norm again. So really he wouldn't have been going overseas until the 26th May 1919 at the earliest.

 

11 hours ago, Karennz said:

I have been told that army records were destroyed so not sure if its worth paying for service records.

 

The records lost in the fire during the Blitz related to those other ranks who served in the Great War but whose service ended before 1920. Those who continued to serve, plus new recruits, were stored completely separately. So far we only know his service number from the 1920 renumbering. He would have had at least one other from his prior service, and it's not unknown for that service number to quoted in the MoD lists rather than the new 7 digit one. It's probably worth running a search by date of birth, (both with and without surname Owen, as typo's can slip in there).

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Edited 9 June , 2021 by PRC
Remove misleading information

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

It doesn't help at all, but I found a  Post 1920 number for a D. McKinnon (Dob 26/7/00), presumably also in the Cameronians, number 2922716.

Only 15 numbers away!

[BullerTurner]

5 hours ago, PRC said:

My understanding is that he would have qualified for the Indian General Service Medal with the clasp for Iraq because the campaign was run by the Indian Government.

No, he would have received the 1918 pattern GSM.  He would have received clasp “Iraq”. The 1924 Army Order No. 387 and Army Instruction (India) No. 132 of 1925 extended eligibility for this clasp to cover further operations in Iraq.  Originally the clasp was instituted for operations in 1919-20.

[Karennz]

Oh Wow thanks again - stories passed down by the family say he lied about his age to get in,but that could just be a story.  But did you know the banks here in NZ say it costs way too much to send a cheque to UK as it has to go there be received and sent back to be verified and returned again.  I got a friend in UK to pay for my other grandfathers records from RAF.  I wish , in this day and age, there would be some other way of paying the 30 pounds.  

One day when I get back to England I will do that in person. Was suppoes to be last year but all know what happened there.

 

I have got stuff to go on with from you guys

Thanks

Karen