hoppo1 Posted 29 May , 2021 Share Posted 29 May , 2021 While researching some family history my father has come across this grave marker in Blackwell St. Werburgh Church Cemetery. It looks similar to a CWGC grave but we can account for all the CWGC graves in the churchyard as my dad cuts the grass around them. There's no inscription other than at the bottom - "Faithful until death he died that we might live" The marker itself is amongst pre 1914 graves mostly around 1911. edit - Sorry picture of writing won't submit the right way around no matter what I do? Can any experts ID what the cross is in the middle? Could it just be a private marker? Thanks. Phil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 29 May , 2021 Share Posted 29 May , 2021 Welcome to GWF. On 29/05/2021 at 19:06, hoppo1 said: Sorry picture of writing won't submit the right way around no matter what I do? There you go ... One presumes that you haven't been able to check/find details on a graves/burial register for that plot. ??? :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 29 May , 2021 Share Posted 29 May , 2021 Phil, Welcome to the forum. It looks like a private headstone, but the lack of a name is unusual. A check of local newspapers may give details of the burials on either side, which in turn may provide you with a possible name. Assuming the person was buried between the dates of those either side of him, then a check of death records for the area may provide a name. Regards, Alf McM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppo1 Posted 29 May , 2021 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2021 Thanks for the replies and the picture turning . Does the cross look like it could be a military? I'll try and find some burial records just really looking to see if it could be a military grave of some description and associated with a particular regiment? I thought it might just be a random cross but the writing then threw me. Also may have to dig a little deeper but worried about making it unsafe as not sure how deep it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 29 May , 2021 Share Posted 29 May , 2021 Faithful unto death He died that we might live is a fairly common inscription in my experience and I would not automatically assume it related to a military death. "He" in this context usually means Jesus Christ, and the person commemorated there could be either sex. Faithful unto death could imply an ardent churchgoer or another kind of devotion such as a wife \ husband or employer. The predecessor of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, the Imperial War Graves Commission had a charter from the government that set the start of their responsibility from August 1914. Yes they have subsequently also taken on responsibility for maintaining non-wartime graves but that is as a result of payments received from the relevant government \ organisation \ individuals. And it doesn't seem to extend to graves prior to August 1914. For example, my local civic cemtery has an area given over to those who died in the Military Barracks from the 1880's onwards when it was opened. With the outbreak of the Great War, it was also used to bury men who died in training locally and whose families did not request the body returned, as as well as casualties who died in the local hospital. The burials infilled the gaps in the existing plot at first, so you have crumbling headstones for pre-war deaths side by side with standard CWGC pattern headstones. The whole area is designated a CWGC cemetery and the grounds are maintained at their expense - but talking to one of their team doing an annual inspection, the older headstones are not their responsibility. So unlikely if they died pre-1914 that the IWGC \ CWGC took on the responsibility. Of course there can always be exceptions and the grave may be later. First step would be to establish who is buried under that headstone and when. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbaraG Posted 29 May , 2021 Share Posted 29 May , 2021 (edited) Random thoughts.... Could you attempt to decipher any letters on very worn surface. Possibly a family grave so in area of earlier burials could be misleading. Any details for adjacent plots? Are there any records/plans for grave yard? Is there War Memorial ? Edit - some names on Memorial in Newton https://derbyshirewarmemorials.com/b-over/643/643.html Registers held at Matlock Record Office Edit - also available on Ancestry Edited 29 May , 2021 by BarbaraG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppo1 Posted 29 May , 2021 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2021 Thanks Peter, what you're saying about the inscription makes sense it could be religious and the cross could also be religious but just happens to make it look military. Looks like I need to get a name if I can. Thanks for everyones input I'll do some more investigation next time were up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbaraG Posted 29 May , 2021 Share Posted 29 May , 2021 (edited) The Parish Records are accessible on Ancestry. Following quick scan found notes made in Register linked with CWGC. Also throws up a possible non-comm. Appearing on CWGC page 28 - William Dickens address The War Hospital, Sunderland. Wounds received in action note in margin page 32 - Frederick Stanley Pearce note difficult to read ‘An ex-sailor...’ Edited 8 June , 2021 by BarbaraG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbaraG Posted 29 May , 2021 Share Posted 29 May , 2021 Concentrating. on WW1 references on CWGC but no obvious notes in Register. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppo1 Posted 29 May , 2021 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2021 Hi Barbara thanks for looking. William Dickens has cwgc marker Frederick Stanley Pearce has a family plot. Cornelius Pitt has a family plot Not sure who you are referring to on the 3rd image? My dad has a book full of photo's and names of a lot of the ww1 soldiers from Blackwell and surrounding villages I think he's found most of them in there I'll have to check with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbaraG Posted 29 May , 2021 Share Posted 29 May , 2021 (edited) Sorry - CWGC has Lt Commander W A C SALMOND Royal Navy 20 March 1921 30yrs, think he is No. 418 William buried March 26 1921. Barbara Edited 29 May , 2021 by BarbaraG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizmeRD Posted 29 May , 2021 Share Posted 29 May , 2021 The image on the gravestone brings to mind the central emblem of the Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment (but it is far from clear). MM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tootrock Posted 29 May , 2021 Share Posted 29 May , 2021 Do we know who is buried either side of the mystery grave marker? Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppo1 Posted 29 May , 2021 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2021 3 hours ago, tootrock said: Do we know who is buried either side of the mystery grave marker? Martin I can find out next time I go there but its amongst pre ww1 graves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppo1 Posted 29 May , 2021 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2021 5 hours ago, KizmeRD said: The image on the gravestone brings to mind the central emblem of the Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment (but it is far from clear). MM I see what you mean but without the cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbaraG Posted 30 May , 2021 Share Posted 30 May , 2021 (edited) On 29/05/2021 at 10:06, hoppo1 said: Blackwell St. Werburgh Church Cemetery. It looks similar to a CWGC grave but we can account for all the CWGC graves in the churchyard as my dad cuts the grass around them. There's no inscription other than at the bottom - "Faithful until death he died that we might live" The marker itself is amongst pre 1914 graves mostly around 1911. Looking at Phil’s photograph and bearing in mind thoughts regarding nearby graves - on left possibly DAWN family plot... and DUFFIELD family plot https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/218500766/jonathan-dawn https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/218493843/annie-elizabeth-duffield .....can be checked with Registers (?) Don't have access to Newspapers but possibly Obituaries another route. Edited 19 June , 2021 by BarbaraG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppo1 Posted 30 May , 2021 Author Share Posted 30 May , 2021 Hi Barbara. None of the surrounding graves have any ref no’s. Next to this grave on the left is blank then we have Ada. To the right is 3 or 4 blank plots then Selina. I got the dates wrong the surrounding graves are around 1904 / 05 in that area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 30 May , 2021 Share Posted 30 May , 2021 Phil, If Matlock Record Office have the burial records {as on Ancestry} then they may also have a record of lair numbers {or know where they are kept}. Each entry in the burial records has a burial number {1167 for Ada Duffield & 1265 for Selina Tart}, and these numbers should be recorded against a particular lair or plot number. Once Ada and Selina's plot numbers are known then {assuming the numbers run consecutively} it should be possible to get the plot number for your mysterious headstone. This should in turn lead to the name of the person buried there. Regards, Alf McM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbaraG Posted 30 May , 2021 Share Posted 30 May , 2021 I did a general enquiry via the ‘Blackwell and Tibshelf Contact Form’ re. Records and attach the reply - although I have omitted contact details as these can be found on the website. https://tibshelfchurch.co.uk/st-werburghs-blackwell/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppo1 Posted 30 May , 2021 Author Share Posted 30 May , 2021 Hi Barbara, the records were removed to a central location for their protection. My parents are regulars up there and have asked. They don't know where they ended up though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppo1 Posted 30 May , 2021 Author Share Posted 30 May , 2021 On 31/05/2021 at 02:36, alf mcm said: Phil, If Matlock Record Office have the burial records {as on Ancestry} then they may also have a record of lair numbers {or know where they are kept}. Each entry in the burial records has a burial number {1167 for Ada Duffield & 1265 for Selina Tart}, and these numbers should be recorded against a particular lair or plot number. Once Ada and Selina's plot numbers are known then {assuming the numbers run consecutively} it should be possible to get the plot number for your mysterious headstone. This should in turn lead to the name of the person buried there. Regards, Alf McM Looking like a trip to Matlock. Have to book in advance as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbaraG Posted 2 June , 2021 Share Posted 2 June , 2021 (edited) On 30/05/2021 at 17:36, alf mcm said: Phil, If Matlock Record Office have the burial records {as on Ancestry} then they may also have a record of lair numbers {or know where they are kept}. Each entry in the burial records has a burial number {1167 for Ada Duffield & 1265 for Selina Tart}, and these numbers should be recorded against a particular lair or plot number. Once Ada and Selina's plot numbers are known then {assuming the numbers run consecutively} it should be possible to get the plot number for your mysterious headstone. This should in turn lead to the name of the person buried there. Regards, Alf McM As there is a headstone, albeit weathered, this suggests a Family Grave. I have come across ‘Indexes’ as the first point of reference and assumed the link was to the grave and family. However learning about the burial number and lair number very interesting. Edited 2 June , 2021 by BarbaraG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppo1 Posted 2 June , 2021 Author Share Posted 2 June , 2021 Found the following flag of Derbyshire which looks very similar to what's on the tombstone. Blackwell is in Derbyshire so makes sense to have that on there. Could be connected to someone who was important around Derbyshire. More digging required ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppo1 Posted 2 June , 2021 Author Share Posted 2 June , 2021 Just discovered that flag is new and came out 2006 !! But the Tudor Rose has been a symbol of Derbyshire since 15th century which the centre looks like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbaraG Posted 2 June , 2021 Share Posted 2 June , 2021 Well done.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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