Standard uniform?

[Barwinmol]

I believe this to be my great uncle Earnest Sidney Skipper.

I wondered if anyone can confirm he is wearing a standard issue uniform- the collar looks different and the webbing belt, the collar maybe fastened up for the photo.

I have tried to blow up the photo  to try to identify the medal ribbons to no avail. Again, I wonder if someone could  offer guesses as to what they are.

 

He was a pre-war regular initially with 1st Kings Dragoon Guards but spent most of his pre-war service with the Norfolk Regiment-he was from Norwich.

Called back into service he was mobilized 5-8-1914 and went to France with 1st Bn  Norfolk Regt, 15th Bde, 5 Div  26-8-1914. After being wounded at Ypres 1915 he remained in the UK until the end of the war.

 

[FROGSMILE]

He’s wearing a standard 1902 service dress (SD) jacket, yes.  His appearance is that of a typical dismounted infantryman (no spurs or bandolier) and the absence of puttees shows he’s in a relaxed environment.  He certainly appears to have the most common WW1 trio of medals, star, war, and victory, but I think there might be a fourth medal, although I cannot make out what it is.  My learned friend @RNCVRmight be able to assist on that score.

 

The example below shows the trio (with a BEF 1914 star and rosette) plus at far right the Army long service and good conduct medal typical of a long serving regular without a blemish on his record.

 

The collar has been drawn together via a hooks and eyes arrangement commonly retrofitted by regulars to give a smarter appearance reminiscent of the pre war scarlet dress tunics and undress frocks (working jackets).

 

As a prewar regular he might have had service with an overseas garrison such as India that might have led to the issue of a general service medal.

 

[RNCVR]

Appears to be a 1WW trio to me, but it could be a War & Victory pair. Its kind of hard to be certain at the distance the photo was taken. A close up of his ribbons would certainly help.

[Barwinmol]

Frogsmile thanks for that.

I wondered if the second medal from the right was the Territorial Force War Medal? Not being sure of medal precedence it is only a guess.

The colour banding of the medals doesn't seem to be the same as your photo although as an Old Contemptible he would have had the standard 3 medals with rosette?

[RNCVR]

Try to post a closeup shot of his ribbons.

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, Barwinmol said:

Frogsmile thanks for that.

I wondered if the second medal from the right was the Territorial Force War Medal? Not being sure of medal precedence it is only a guess.

The colour banding of the medals doesn't seem to be the same as your photo although as an Old Contemptible he would have had the standard 3 medals with rosette?

He would only have a TF War Medal if he didn’t qualify for a star is my understanding, but I will need to check that.

 

Afternote:  the caveat mentioned is correct.

Edited 25 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, Barwinmol said:

Frogsmile thanks for that.

I wondered if the second medal from the right was the Territorial Force War Medal? Not being sure of medal precedence it is only a guess.

The colour banding of the medals doesn't seem to be the same as your photo although as an Old Contemptible he would have had the standard 3 medals with rosette?

As an old contemptible he would indeed have qualified for the trio with rosette.

 

In 1914 1st KDG was garrisoned at Lucknow in India, where they would have been for some year’s.  It will be worth checking if the regiment’s service there attracted the India General Service Medal.

 

Afternote:  looking at the following link it seems not: https://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/british_cavalry_regiment/1st_kings_dragoon_guards.htm

 

The KDG did earn 2nd Boer War medals but you haven’t mentioned service that far back (1899-1902) so I’m running out of ideas.  
 

NB.  It’s easy to get misled by colour rendering as the orthochromatic film of that period did not show true all colours with some dark appearing light and light appearing dark.
 

 

 

Edited 25 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Barwinmol]

He was only with KDG a few weeks,he joined up 19-2-1907 and spent most of his service with the Norfolk Regiment.

This is the best I can do with regards to highlighting the row of medals.

 

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, Barwinmol said:

He was only with KDG a few weeks,he joined up 19-2-1907 and spent most of his service with the Norfolk Regiment.

This is the best I can do with regards to highlighting the row of medals.

This link shows medal types awarded to the Norfolk Regiment by unit.  There’s nothing there that obviously fits his enlistment period: https://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/british_regiment/norfolk_regiment.htm

[RNCVR]

24 minutes ago, Barwinmol said:

He was only with KDG a few weeks,he joined up 19-2-1907 and spent most of his service with the Norfolk Regiment.

This is the best I can do with regards to highlighting the row of medals.

 

 

Appears to be War & Victory ribbons, but I am uncertain on the presence of a 1914 (1914-15?) star.

[FROGSMILE]

Three medal ribbons do fit the profile of the photo after noting that four ribbons, as on my colour photos above, span the full width of the chest pocket, which is not the case with the original poster’s images.  
Given that we know that our subject deployed with the Norfolks as part of the BEF in Aug 1914 then the star with rosette must be present.  Presumably there must be a medal index card to bear that out.

Edited 25 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Barwinmol]

I looked at the  northeastmedal website and according to the qualifications for the Territorial Force War Medal he does qualify under para b. The article states the medal was introduced in 1920- he was demobbed 19-3-1920.

I did look at his medal card and he was awarded the1914 Star and clasp,Victory Medal and British War Medal.

[PRC]

Surviving Service record and Medal Index card for 7529 Ernest Sidney Skipper, Norfolk Regiment. Service record shows he transferred in from the 1st Kings Dragoon Guards on the 17th August 1907, (service number with 1KDG was 205 - originally enlisted 14th February 1907). Seems to have spent parts of his pre-war service on detached transport duties at Aldershot and Woolwich. He was a Class A Reservist from the 13th February 1914 when he went to work for the Post Office in Norwich as a Postman.

 

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales he was recorded as the 24 year old Lance Corporal Ernest Skipper, born Norwich, in barracks with the 1st Battalion, Norfolk Regiment at the Marlborough Lines, Aldershot.

 

He didn't initially deploy with the 1st Battalion, but went out as one of the first drafts, landing in France on the 27th August 1914, (MiC), or the 26th (Service Record - but could be date he embarked). He was discharged in 1920 on completion of his term of enlistment. FMP has a Medical Admission record for him for 1915 but unfortunately I've exhausted my monthly quota of looks ups so can't check the details.

 

1 hour ago, Barwinmol said:

I wondered if the second medal from the right was the Territorial Force War Medal?

 

As a Regular the Territorial Force War Medal wouldn't even be a consideration.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Barwinmol]

His hospitalisation in 1915 was for the GSW to the head received 18-4-1915 in the attack on Hill 60 Ypres.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Barwinmol said:

I looked at the  northeastmedal website and according to the qualifications for the Territorial Force War Medal he does qualify under para b. The article states the medal was introduced in 1920- he was demobbed 19-3-1920.

I did look at his medal card and he was awarded the1914 Star and clasp,Victory Medal and British War Medal.

There are numerous clauses for the Territorial Force War Medal and just one of them states ineligible if in receipt of either, 1914 (original BEF) star, or 1914-15 star, so hence my earlier afternote.  He was also a regular.

As mentioned the span of his medal ribbons in your photo is correct for three medals.  Four stretches to the full width of the pocket.

Edited 25 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Barwinmol]

Thanks for all your comments, another learning day!

I am now wondering if I have mis-identified him and that it might be his brother Charles Skipper. It is difficult to compare the posed photos in uniform with what I think is a post war family photo.

Charles was also a pre-war regular and called back into the army,his pre-war service seems very colourful, his stripes must have been worn with velcro!!

He was awarded the 1914 Star,British and Victory medals.

He was a Shoeingsmith and mobilized in August 1914. He went to France with 129 Battery (H), 30 Bde RFA, 3 Div.

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, Barwinmol said:

Thanks for all your comments, another learning day!

I am now wondering if I have mis-identified him and that it might be his brother Charles Skipper. It is difficult to compare the posed photos in uniform with what I think is a post war family photo.

Charles was also a pre-war regular and called back into the army,his pre-war service seems very colourful, his stripes must have been worn with velcro!!

He was awarded the 1914 Star,British and Victory medals.

He was a Shoeingsmith and mobilized in August 1914. He went to France with 129 Battery (H), 30 Bde RFA, 3 Div.

I doubt that it is Charles Skipper given the dress in the photo.  For formal portraits (as opposed to impromptu sittings) Artillerymen liked to emphasise their mounted status (less RGA) by wearing bandolier and spurs.  It's also more rare to see them without shoulder titles and shoulder lanyard.  The canvas web 1908 pattern waist belt would also not usually be worn by them.  It was an infantry item.  This is why I told you in my opening post that his appearance was typical of a dismounted infantryman.

Edited 25 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Andrew Upton]

 

On 25/05/2021 at 20:53, RNCVR said:

Appears to be a 1WW trio to me, but it could be a War & Victory pair. Its kind of hard to be certain at the distance the photo was taken. A close up of his ribbons would certainly help.

 

I believe that the soldier in the photo is only wearing the ribbons of the standard late war pair of the BWM and VM, not a trio or four ribbons. A standard medal ribbon bar for the BWM/VM pair alone would be about 3 inches long. Conveniently for scale purposes, the standard 1908 Pattern belt he is wearing is itself 3 inches wide, and if you measure the width of the belt on the photo and compare that measurement to the ribbon bar length it is virtually identical. The width of a ribbon bar for a trio of medals would be almost 4 1/2 inches and noticeably longer than the belt width but this is clearly not the case here, and if it was four ribbons being worn it would be over 5 1/2 inches (so nearly double the belt width, again clearly not the case):

 

 

 

[RNCVR]

4 hours ago, Barwinmol said:

 

I did look at his medal card and he was awarded the 1914 Star and clasp,Victory Medal and British War Medal.

 

I agree with your reasoning Andrew, however,

Skipper would have been awarded the 1914 star ribbon first, then subsequently the British War & Victory pair, so it makes sense that his first ribbon should be the 1914 star.  I dont know how to resolve that issue tho.?

[Andrew Upton]

Just now, RNCVR said:

 

I agree with your reasoning Andrew, however,

Skipper would have been awarded the 1914 star ribbon first, then subsequently the British War & Victory pair, so it makes sense that his first ribbon should be the 1914 star.  I dont know how to resolve that issue tho.?

 

I am certain that first medal is not the 1914 Star though, on the better shot you can clearly make out the thin stripes of the BWM. As the OP literally starts with "I believe this to be..." it could simply be this is someone completely different...

[Pat Atkins]

For what it's worth, I can only see a pair too.

[RNCVR]

24 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

I am certain that first medal is not the 1914 Star though, on the better shot you can clearly make out the thin stripes of the BWM. As the OP literally starts with "I believe this to be..." it could simply be this is someone completely different...

 

Yes of course that is very good possibility, we may never know.....

[SteveE]

1 hour ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

I am certain that first medal is not the 1914 Star though, on the better shot you can clearly make out the thin stripes of the BWM.

I have to agree with you, I can’t see anything to suggest the Star riband, only those of the British War & Victory Medal pair.

 

Steve

[FROGSMILE]

Just two then.  I think Andrew’s played a blinder.  It’s certainly far from the four that I initially thought possible, but then realised couldn’t be given the colour images for comparison.  It seems as if the fellow in the photo is not who Barwinmol thought.

Edited 25 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

4 hours ago, Barwinmol said:

I am now wondering if I have mis-identified him and that it might be his brother Charles Skipper.

 

While Ernest wasn't living with his parents on the 1911 Census of England & Wales, Charles was - they were a Charles William Skipper, a 52 year old Bricklayer from "Cottessey" (Costessey), Norfolk and Caroline Harriet Skipper, (aged 51, born Blofield, Norfolk) who were living at 127 Adelaide Street, Norwich. That address turns up in Ernests' service record. The couple state they have been married 34 years and have had 15 children, of which 13 were still alive. The most likely candidates for Ernest and Charles on the 1901 Census of England & Wales were also recorded as the sons of this couple.

 

Working on the slightly dodgy logic that the youngest male child living with the family on the 1911 Census of England & Wales might have been the one most likely not to have entered a Theatre of War before the 1st January 1916, I started with him. The son concerned was an 11 year old Thomas Peter Skipper, born Norwich.

 

There is no obvious surviving service records for a Thomas Peter Skipper, but there is only one MiC in the National Archive record for a Thomas P. Skipper. He was Private 97002 Middlesex Regiment then Private 444228 Labour Corps. (Edit to add) He only qualified for the Victory Medal and the British War Medal. I can only see the search returns in Ancestry, but that tells me 444228 Labour Corps was a Thomas Peter Skipper. Could be a complete co-incidence but the civil birth records for England & Wales for 1837 to 1911 has only one Thomas Peter Skipper. That birth was registered in the Norwich District in the July to September quarter, (Q3) of 1899 - making him 11 years old when the 1911 Census was taken on the 2nd of April 1911. There appears to be transcripts of Pension Ledger Cards for the Labour Corps man as well which might help confirm or deny a Norwich connection.

 

The next oldest male child on the 1911 Census is a 13 year old Samuel David Skipper. There appear to be some Service Records on FMP (and presumably Ancestry as well) for a Samuel David Skipper, born Norwich. Familysearch have catalogued them as relating to 1275, Samuel David Skipper, 2 Battery, 1/2nd East Anglian Brigade, R.F.A., who  was aged 18 and he was born Norwich and resident Great Yarmouth when he enlisted in 1914. There is a Silver War Badge MiC for a 1275 Samuel David Skipper of the 1/2nd East Anglian Brigade, Royal Field Artillery, enlisted 6th August 1914, discharged 19th June 1915 under Kings Regs 392(xvi) Sickness. There also appears to be Pension ledger cards on Ancestry. Can't find a service medal MiC, so unless he was subsequently medically regraded and conscripted, seems likely he could not have qualified for the British War Medal and Victory Medal. Again there is only one instance of a Samuel David Skipper recorded in the birth register for England & Wales - it was in Norwich in Q1 1898.

 

Next up is John James Skipper, a 15 year old Boot Factory worker at the time of the 1911 Census, born Norwich. There appear to be surviving servive records on FMP for a John James Skipper born Norwich circa 1896. Familysearch has the 19 year old John James Skipper, born Norwich, resident Great Yarmouth, enlisting in the 1st East Anglian Brigade , R.F.A. in 1914 Service number is 1276 - so looks like he joined at the same time as Samuel David Skipper. He was discharged in 1917 they say still serving with the same unit, (tbc). However struggling to find any MiC record. Couldn't see a MiC on Ancestry but there is a Service Medal Roll for a "Joan Jas Skipper" and some Pension Ledger card entries for a John James Skipper.

 

After those three you are starting to get to an age in which the children could have left home. Ernest we know joined up in February 1907, when he would just have been coming up to his 18th birthday - his birth was registered in the Norwich District in the April to June quarter of 1889. However he may have added a year or two to his age - the 1911 Census return shows him as aged 24 which almost certainly is the age the Army had recorded for him. If his other brothers followed a similar path it would a case of tracking them all through.

 

But for now my nomination for the man in the picture would be Thomas Peter Skipper, aged about 20 / 21

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

 

Edited 25 May , 2021 by PRC