Are these three buried in the same grave?

[museumtom]

By accident I came across these three lads who are buried in the grave it seems. Any ideas please?

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2742404/DANIEL BROPHY/

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2742403/JOHN BRENNAN/

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2742402/PATRICK BEATTIE/

Edited 18 May , 2021 by museumtom

[AOK4]

11 minutes ago, museumtom said:

By accident I came across these three lads who are buried in the grave it seems. Any ideas please?

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2742404/DANIEL BROPHY/

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2742403/JOHN BRENNAN/

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2742402/PATRICK BEATTIE/

 

Yes, it is a cemetery that was created by the Germans. As was common for their own dead as well at that point, NCOs and men were buried in mass graves, while officers were buried in single graves.

 

Jan

 

[museumtom]

Excellent clarification, thank you Jan.

 

[Alan24]

On 18/05/2021 at 18:38, AOK4 said:

NCOs and men were buried in mass graves,

 

Jan,

 

Sorting the CSV file from CWGC listing appears to show that men were buried '3 to a plot' rather than in a 'Mass' grave. 

The men also seem to be grouped on headstones in alphabetical order, which does seem rather too neat.

 

Are you saying that these men aren't actually buried under the headstone which bears their name, but in fact could be anywhere within in 'Grave I'?

 

Therefore the men in post #1 may not be laying shoulder to shoulder as implied by the CWCG lists but could be several metres apart from each other? 

 

'Grave II' on the plan below contains the 9 officers in individual plots. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alan24]

I think I've just answered my own question here...

 

Each man has his own headstone placed around the perimeter and arranged in alphabetical order, and not positioned over his own grave. 

[AOK4]

Hello,

 

In my opinion one can understand the plan as it says there: grave 1 is a mass grave of 123 burials (if I see it correctly) and grave 2 is a mass grave of 9. Headstones were indeed just aligned alphabetically. Similar situations can be found in Mons St. Symphorien as well (also a German built cemetery).

 

Headstones are placed along the cemetery wall in alphabetical order anyway IIRC from my visit there, I seem to remember that the actual (mass) graves had some plants, while the rest of the cemetery is lawn.

 

The bodies are indeed buried together, without any particular order, the grave numbers per three are just something made by the IWGC at some point, I would say.

 

Jan

[Alan24]

4 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

The bodies are indeed buried together, without any particular order, the grave numbers per three are just something made by the IWGC at some point, I would say.

 

Thanks for explaining Jan.

Very interesting. 

[AOK4]

Hello,

 

I checked my information. The Germans mention a mass grave, made by the British (POWs probably), of 9 officers and 111 NCOs and men. I would still assume that the officers were buried separately (either in one mass grave or in single graves) and the rest in one large trench grave. The documents on the CWGC seem to suggest two graves for the officers and one mass grave for the rest.

 

Unfortunately the original German sources (cemetery plans etc) are very difficult to track down if anything still exists.

 

Jan

[museumtom]

Thank you Jan and Alan, fascinating stuff. Thank you both very much indeed.

 

[museumtom]

Two more if I may please guys and gals. Are these two in the same grave?

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/327584/H C BAILEY/

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/327586/J J BARRETT/

[Knotty]

Morning Tom

I hope this answers your question, just follow the link to the photo.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/69671514/j-j-barrett

 

[museumtom]

Thank you kindly Knotty. The thing is they died 12 day apart? Its a mystery to be sure.

 Thanks again for looking.

Kind regards.

Tom.

[horatio2]

AB BARRETT's record shows that he died on 18 APRIL 1918, not 18 MAY as on CWGC..

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6695171

 

See also 18 April entry here -   http://www.naval-history.net/xDKCas1918-04Apr.htm - "Lighter X.91, believed Admiralty X-type motor landing craft

 BARRETT, John, Able Seaman, 183720, drowned"

Edited 26 May , 2021 by horatio2

[museumtom]

Thank you kindly Horatio, very intriguing indeed.