Cap Badge for ID please --- Indian Unattached List ??

[charlie962]

Can you identify this cap badge please? I suspect it is prewar c 1908. I believe the man who wore it was a Regular in the Dorsetshires, based in India from 1898, who moved across into the Corps of Military Staff Clerks in 1908 as a Sgt then Staff Sgt and continued to serve in India.

 

It has the tudor crown so it is post victorian. Are the letters ERI ? Is it Edward VII ie not later than 1907 ? -Problem is that he (if it is the man I'm researching) was still 2nd Dorsets in 1907 and did not transfer to IUL/CMSC until 1908. Is it connected with Indian Unattached List or with Corps of Military Staff Clerks ?

 

Many thanks

Charlie

 

 

PS within scope of Forum because he was a Great War Kut PoW for whom I'm trying to find a photo.

[jay dubaya]

I’m with the ERI cap badge, it is identical other than the first letter to the GRI cap badge.

[FROGSMILE]

You are bang on correct, it’s the Indian Army equivalent of the Garrison Staff insignia and as you’ve accurately identified was known as the Indian Army Unattached List.  Both organisations wore a Royal cypher as their headdress insignia, but that in India had the I to recognise that the Indian Army was serving the Imperatrix or Imperator (Empress or Emperor).  Both at home and in India the Corps of Military Staff Clerks fell under those categories (the British members never had their own cap badge until moved to the ASC and then much later RAOC, whereas the native NCOs did).  The badge you have shown was for Edward VII and replaced the VRI of Queen Victoria.  It’s important to note that a large number of odds and sods came under Garrison Staff and Indian Unattached List, not just staff clerks.  It was a billet for miscellaneous staff, but most especially SNCOs and warrant officers on extra-regimental duty.  In 1910 King George V ascended and the badge changed to GRI with Tudor crown.

 

NB.  As a probationer clerk (usually 6-months) he would have retained his own cap badge until accepted onto the role of staff clerks permanently.  Before Victoria was made empress a similar badge was worn but without the extra letter - I. 

Edited 14 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

28 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 In 1910 King George V ascended and the badge changed to GRI

Thanks jay and frogsmile. Not a very exciting cap badge, is it. I had not appreciated that the IUL had its own uniform although I've researched a number of IUL men.

 

So the cap with the ERI could be worn up to that date of 1910. That makes for a better fit for the photo.

 

Would shoulder straps have carried the same insignia? What  would a Staff Sergeant in the IUL  (which many ended up) have on his sleeves ?

 

Charlie

 

PS Would buttons have similar ERI with crown above?

 

 

Edited 14 May , 2021 by charlie962

[FROGSMILE]

On 15/05/2021 at 01:23, charlie962 said:

Thanks jay and frogsmile. Not a very exciting cap badge, is it. I had not appreciated that the IUL had its own uniform although I've researched a number of IUL men.

 

So the cap with the ERI could be worn up to that date of 1910. That makes for a better fit for the photo.

 

Would shoulder straps have carried the same insignia? What  would a Staff Sergeant in the IUL  (which many ended up) have on his sleeves ?

 

Charlie

 

PS Would buttons have similar ERI with crown above?

 

 

Yes the shoulder strap bore the same cypher.  There was no special arm badge, but gold chevrons on scarlet were worn on full dress and undress.  Garrison Sergeant Majors wore the same in those days, as it was policy that they were taken off regimental rolls, onto the separate garrison, or unattached staff lists, and wore unifying insignia.  Buttons were also of the cypher pattern, yes.  Together with Bruce Bassett-Powell we did some work on headdress in uniformology.com and we’ve now moved onto shoulder insignia, but not yet reached the departmental corps.  The same badge but inside a laurel wreath was especially for the European section of the Indian Corps of Staff Clerks, which is often misunderstood (Army Regulations, India, Clothing, refers).

 

[charlie962]

Thanks

9 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes the shoulder strap bore the same cypher.  There was no special arm badge, but gold chevrons on scarlet were worn on full dress and undress.  Garrison Sergeant Majors wore the same in those days, as it was policy that they were taken off regimental rolls, onto the separate garrison, or unattached staff lists, and wore unifying insignia.  Buttons were also of the cypher pattern, yes.  Together with Bruce Bassett-Powell we did some work on headdress in uniformology.com and we’ve now moved onto shoulder insignia, but not yet reached the departmental corps.

I tried to pm you but not allowed ?

charlie

 

PS I suspect I have some examples of those buttons somewhere...

Edited 14 May , 2021 by charlie962

[charlie962]

11 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

uniformology.com

Now why have I not seen that before ?

[FROGSMILE]

19 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Thanks

I tried to pm you but not allowed ?

charlie

 

PS I suspect I have some examples of those buttons somewhere...

My inbox must be full again.  I'll do a clear out and then PM you.