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Remembered Today:

Unit(s) Identification - group of Sgts


4thGordons
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There appear to be several different cap badges displayed here : is it possible to identify them?

and if so -- are these mixed regiments in some sort of course?

The title (on the front of the picture but cropped off to zero in on the detail) is "Sgts of No 2 Battalion" - which seems slightly odd phrasing (No 2 instead of Second?) perhaps suggesting some sort of composite group?

Thanks in advance for the insights,

Chris

 

Sgts-No-2Btn-DetailW.jpg.51faca5565198515375b3ca649ea5b96.jpg

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Sgts-No-2Btn-closew.jpg.10df00d8da3b44543cbe9ae465ab3250.jpg

 

Sgts-No-2Btn-closew2.jpg.e8c87f5a66e0bcefaab8e64b999721fb.jpg

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The cap badges are those of several University OTCs. Manchester, Leeds and Nottingham amongst them.   Pete.

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There seem to be a certain amount of 'older' shall we say soldiers in the photo, as well as what look to be a couple of drum majors, is it a photo of a 'Course' or 'Cadre' Sgts mess taken at course end? 

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As Pete said they’re all OTC NCO staff.  It has all the appearance of a Sergeants’ Mess tent at an OTC Brigade annual summer training camp.  As well as Sergeants there appear to be Quarter-master-Sergeants and Acting Sergeant Majors with their tell tale 4-inverted stripes on both lower sleeves.  Several NCOs have the Certificate A proficiency stars on their arms too.  Brigade camps were popular and considered more efficient as they promoted an economy of scale, enabled practice in the command and control of larger bodies (of students) for field training, and also facilitated the taking of turns as an ‘enemy’ force.  For the Sergeants’ Mess tent usually set up it also offered the opportunity for off-duty socialising and the easy transfer of ideas, as well as aiding in inculcating a military ethos.

 

1FB92B4E-0D4F-48A7-AC16-F81992F4DE65.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Two prominent badges are those of Leeds University OTC and Nottingham University OTC so it’s a Senior Division OTC camp.  Also Birmingham University OTC and Manchester University OTC appears to be present, making up the Brigade, along with Bristol University OTC and, in the rear row, University of Wales OTC (circular badge) so it appears to be a camp for no less than six University OTCs.

 

NB.  Number 2 Battalion suggests that the students and staff at the camp were divided into two battalions for the purposes of undergoing organised training.

 

 

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CE4E4816-E05C-43CD-BDC5-045DCF291397.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Ahh that explains the inverted stripes, thought they were drum majors but as you say the canes make sense too....this is my old Regimental band, The Yorkshire Volunteers with the drum major showing the said inverted stripes, as they say you learn something new every day....thanks TEW.....

19452963_1373893696039577_8615022912935725737_o.jpg

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3 hours ago, exXIX said:

Ahh that explains the inverted stripes, thought they were drum majors but as you say the canes make sense too....this is my old Regimental band, The Yorkshire Volunteers with the drum major showing the said inverted stripes, as they say you learn something new every day....thanks TEW.....

19452963_1373893696039577_8615022912935725737_o.jpg

4-inverted stripes was originally a marker of the most senior sergeants in a unit (infantry), or sub-unit (cavalry and artillery).  The various music majors (drum, bugle, trumpet and pipe) were allowed to dress in the same manner as a privilege to represent their front of house role, even though their actual rank was lower.  It’s quite ironic that they’ve ended up being the last appointments to wear such an old badge first introduced during the Napoleonic wars, although it was originally on the upper arm and point down before moving to the lower position in some units in the 1860s, and then finally settling in its current position and orientation after 1881.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Just now, FROGSMILE said:

4-inverted stripes was originally a marker of the most senior sergeants in a unit (infantry), or sub-unit cavalry and artillery (originally).  The various music majors (drum, bugle and pipe) were allowed to dress in the same manner as a privilege to represent their front of house role, even though their actual rank was lower.  It’s quite ironic that they’ve ended up being the last appointments to where such an old badge first introduced during the Napoleonic wars.

Didn't actually know that but your observations are welcomed, thanks mate..

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Just now, exXIX said:

Didn't actually know that but your observations are welcomed, thanks mate..

I’m glad to help.  I still learn new things most days too.

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Excellent, thank you very much all.

Chris

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4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

...in the rear row, University of Wales OTC (circular badge)

CE4E4816-E05C-43CD-BDC5-045DCF291397.jpeg.0834db6563721eac154336366447b4a3.jpeg.86043f2575de293952fddf12a41c300e.jpeg

 

Just a small pedantic point/question if I may Frogsmile.

The badge shows 'UCW Aberystwyth'. [University College of Wales, Aberystwyth].

 

At the time, the University of Wales was a federal university, much like the Universities of Oxford or Cambridge, consisting of three constituent colleges:

UCW, Aberystwyth,

University College of North Wales, Bangor, and

University College of South Wales and Monmouthshire, Cardiff.

 

Would there have been an OTC  at Bangor and Cardiff, with different badges? Or even an overriding OTC for the whole of the University of Wales?

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, exXIX said:

Ahh that explains the inverted stripes, thought they were drum majors but as you say the canes make sense too....this is my old Regimental band, The Yorkshire Volunteers with the drum major showing the said inverted stripes, as they say you learn something new every day....thanks TEW.....

 

Just spotted this topic, now wondering what I said 🤔.

TEW

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1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

 

Just a small pedantic point/question if I may Frogsmile.

The badge shows 'UCW Aberystwyth'. [University College of Wales, Aberystwyth].

 

At the time, the University of Wales was a federal university, much like the Universities of Oxford or Cambridge, consisting of three constituent colleges:

UCW, Aberystwyth,

University College of North Wales, Bangor, and

University College of South Wales and Monmouthshire, Cardiff.

 

Would there have been an OTC  at Bangor and Cardiff, with different badges? Or even an overriding OTC for the whole of the University of Wales?

 

 

 

As I understand it Dai, at that time there were just two universities that together formed the University of Wales, one at Aberystwyth and the other at Bangor.  I don’t think Cardiff university existed at that point.  See: https://www.tradeshouselibrary.org/uploads/4/7/7/2/47723681/the_otc_and_the_great_war_1914_~_18.pdf

As regards insignia, Aberystwyth wore the badge shown but Bangor was affiliated with the Royal Garrison Artillery and it seems possible that it wore an RA badge although I’ve not been able to get to the bottom of it.  There is otherwise only the Aberystwyth badge and certainly no badge inscribed with Bangor.  
 

I enclose a photo showing two cadets with whom is thought to be their recently commissioned brother badged as SWB, courtesy of forum member ‘copper’.  I’ve always wondered who they were and if they survived.

 

1615FC80-E011-4B76-9A42-3A3C062B2DA7.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Do I spot a Proficiency Star on the RQMS? I think that is the first time I have seen that.  Also a couple of the men appear to have a small line of horizontal braid/badge on the cuff?

Edited by Toby Brayley
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9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

As I understand it Dai, at that time there were just two universities that together formed the University of Wales, one at Aberystwyth and the other at Bangor.  I don’t think Cardiff university existed at that point.  See: https://www.tradeshouselibrary.org/uploads/4/7/7/2/47723681/the_otc_and_the_great_war_1914_~_18.pdf

Thanks  FS.

Yes, University College Cardiff existed then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_University

Haven't  been able to download your link yet.

Perhaps there's a reference to Cardiff OTC  in there.

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2 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Thanks  FS.

Yes, University College Cardiff existed then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_University

Haven't  been able to download your link yet.

Perhaps there's a reference to Cardiff OTC  in there.


It isn’t mentioned Dai, so perhaps it was still just a “technical college” rather than a university then, but I don’t know.  Certainly it is not listed under the Senior Division OTC.  

Edited by FROGSMILE
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1/ The man 5th from right sitting has a distinctive cap decoration?

2/ Very few medal ribbons worn, just a few that look like (but certainly aren’t) MC. What medal is that likely to be?

 

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2 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

Do I spot a Proficiency Star on the RQMS? I think that is the first time I have seen that.  Also a couple of the men appear to have a small line of horizontal braid/badge on the cuff?

Yes you do Toby.  He is a very young QMS and clearly a student, but it’s interesting as you say to see the Certificate A badge, plus that it was possible to achieve that relatively high position as a student.  I can’t immediately make out the braid to which you refer, but it was quite common for OTCs to use rolls of drab ‘herringbone braid’ that could be obtained to create various kinds of decoration.

 

NB.  Careful scrutiny of the photos reveals some permanent staff SNCO instructors from the regular army, wearing college badges, but distinguished by medal ribbons and typical moustaches.  Interestingly some have the ribbons in the obsolete higher position up on a shoulder patch and others the new position along the top of the pocket flap.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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21 hours ago, TEW said:

 

Just spotted this topic, now wondering what I said 🤔.

TEW

Ooops......

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Thanks for all the responses and observations - most illuminating.

Chris

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12 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

Thanks for all the responses and observations - most illuminating.

Chris

Did you purchase the picture Chris?

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45 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Did you purchase the picture Chris?

Yes, it was part of a small lot of 5 photos.

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Just now, 4thGordons said:

 

Yes, it was part of a small lot of 5 photos.

Excellent, it's good to know that it's with someone who will look after it.  Yet another snapshot in time.

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