COMMONWEALTH WAR GRAVES COMMISSION AND RACISM

[Norrette]

A link to David Olusoga's piece in today's Graun -  if you haven't already seen it. I didn't know he was equally interested in the Great War, as well as his excellent research on social history.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/25/britains-failure-to-honour-black-and-asian-dead-is-a-scandal-of-the-present-not-just-the-past?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

[Liz in Eastbourne]

26 minutes ago, Norrette said:

A link to David Olusoga's piece in today's Graun -  if you haven't already seen it. I didn't know he was equally interested in the Great War, as well as his excellent research on social history.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/25/britains-failure-to-honour-black-and-asian-dead-is-a-scandal-of-the-present-not-just-the-past?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

 

His book 'The World's War' came out soon after his BBC series of the same name in 2014.

[Norrette]

Thanks @liz and apols to @Hedley, as I hadn't seen his earlier post with the same link.

[healdav]

5 hours ago, Liz in Eastbourne said:

 Nigel S's post about Muslim funerals seems sensible to me.  I have personal experience of Muslim practices in a particular African society but did not post because I feel sure there are, and were even a hundred years ago, many variations.  

 

In any case the comment by the colonial governor which sparked this discussion was clearly not specifically or even mainly about Muslims but included local religions.  It is unfortunate that Sir Gordon Guggisberg should be branded a particular example of pervasive racism, since he was if anything a man who made an enormous practical contribution to combating it.  He is still highly regarded in Ghana where (as in Nigeria) he had been a surveyor and map-maker, travelling widely, for many years before the First World War, in which he served with distinction on the Western Front. Post-war, as Governor of the Gold Coast, he co-founded the co-educational school which is still Ghana's foremost secondary educational institution, Achimota College, alma mater of Nkrumah, and also Ghana's leading hospital, Korle-Bu Teaching Hospital. On occasion he went against the authorities in London on behalf of the people of the Gold Coast and Asante. 

 

It is ironic that Guggisberg himself only got a headstone on his grave in Bexhill Cemetery because it was commissioned and paid for several years after his death by the chiefs and people of the Gold Coast and Asante.
It reads:
TO THE EVERLASTING MEMORY OF 
GOVERNOR SIR GORDON GUGGISBERG
WHO DIED IN 1930 AT BEXHILL
THIS MEMORIAL WAS ERECTED BY THE 
PARAMOUNT CHIEFS AND PEOPLE OF 
THE GOLD COAST AND ASANTE  

The imposing statue of him in the grounds of Korle-Bu Teaching Hospital was erected not by the colonial authorities but by the independent Government of Ghana in 1974 to mark its 50th anniversary the previous year. 

 

So, even if the language he used then grates on modern sensibilities, I think it's reasonable to assume that his comment did in fact reflect a knowledge of and respect for many West African peoples, not disparagement of them. Of course, the IWGC/CWGC has to live up to its principles, and it’s right that they try to put right inequalities as far as they are able.  But it's unduly repressive of discussion in my view to insist that everything said and done at the time – in this case, to query whether individual headstones rather than group memorials were appropriate  –  must be a sign of racism.
 

Well said.

[phil andrade]

Did any of the other belligerents in the Great War erect any memorials to commemorate their equivalent of the IWGC Mont Fleuri Memorial in the Seychelles ?  There were “ Carrier Corps” counterparts deployed by the Germans, for example .

 

Phil

[AOK4]

28 minutes ago, phil andrade said:

Did any of the other belligerents in the Great War erect any memorials to commemorate their equivalent of the IWGC Mont Fleuri Memorial in the Seychelles ?  There were “ Carrier Corps” counterparts deployed by the Germans, for example .

 

Phil

 

The Germans definitely did not, as they lost their colonies.

 

I don't think the Belgians have anything similar.

[kenf48]

A gentle reminder to remain on topic.

 

This topic originally concerned the response to the Report of the Special Committee of the CWGC to Review Historical Inequalities in Commemoration (to give it the full title).

 

The report has received worldwide publicity and a summary of the CWGC response has helpfully been posted here, as have links to UK press reports.

 

It would be helpful for contributors to read the report which acknowledges the efforts on the Western Front but identifies the historical and Imperial or Colonial attitudes which led to a much lesser adoption of the the stated principles of the IWGC in other theatres.

 

Please can we keep on topic as it concerns the reputational challenge to the CWGC and how as an organisation, like so many others, including for example the Anglican Church are having to respond to perceived historical injustice.  The German response to commemoration is of itself an interesting topic, the Langemark German Cemetery is in my opinion one of the most moving sites on the Western Front.  Should members wish to start a thread on that topic it may raise some interest but I don't think it has any place on this thread.

 

 

[kenf48]

On 25/04/2021 at 10:30, Gareth Davies said:

What is interesting in this discussion is the absence of any comment on the fact that the CWGC knew about this wrong some time ago from work by Prof Barrett and others but did absolutely nothing.

 

Professor Michele Barrett (http://www.michelebarrett.com/biography/) was a member of the Special Committee and as noted in the press release issued by the Committee along with all the other members available for media interviews. 

It appears the MSM decided to interview David Olusoga who was not, instead.

 

Professor Barrett published her academic research in 2014 and whilst the then management of the CWGC may have considered it, even at that time there were political and economic considerations.  Public spending was being cut back and there were major issues for the CWGC in war zones (destruction of graves in Libya and Iraq for example.)

 

Acknowledging, as the report does memorialisation on the Western Front, and we could have another discussion on how that was influenced by Anglican and Imperialist theology,  in other theatres, as the report cites  it was recognised as early as 1920  the 'equality of sacrifice' principle was abandoned. 

 

Memorials were erected but the IWGC made the decision not to name casualties on the memorial but maintain a memorial register.   It is significant that the 'known' issues cited in the report were either in war zones or politically unstable regimes at the time of the Professor Barrett's research, e.g. Basra, Egypt, Nigeria, Sierra Leone etc.  This and the contemporary 'Austerity' policy of the then UK Government must have put it in the 'too difficult ' box when she published her original research.

 

I think the fact the CWGC Director-General and staff have, of necessity, 'accepted and embraced' each of the ten recommendations of the Committee but  they may be storing up hostages to fortune, the most glaring  example is 'flexibility in evidence criteria for specific non-commemoration cases'. 

Of the remainder I don't think anyone can argue with greater community engagement etc., but 'flexibility in evidence criteria' does seem a very big step from their current policy.

 

 

[Norrette]

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

It appears the MSM decided to interview David Olusoga who was not, instead.

 

I don't have a problem with that.

Edited 26 April , 2021 by Norrette

[Gunner Bailey]

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

 

Professor Michele Barrett (http://www.michelebarrett.com/biography/) was a member of the Special Committee and as noted in the press release issued by the Committee along with all the other members available for media interviews. 

It appears the MSM decided to interview David Olusoga who was not, instead.

 

Professor Barrett published her academic research in 2014 and whilst the then management of the CWGC may have considered it, even at that time there were political and economic considerations.  Public spending was being cut back and there were major issues for the CWGC in war zones (destruction of graves in Libya and Iraq for example.)

 

Acknowledging, as the report does memorialisation on the Western Front, and we could have another discussion on how that was influenced by Anglican and Imperialist theology,  in other theatres, as the report cites  it was recognised as early as 1920  the 'equality of sacrifice' principle was abandoned. 

 

Memorials were erected but the IWGC made the decision not to name casualties on the memorial but maintain a memorial register.   It is significant that the 'known' issues cited in the report were either in war zones or politically unstable regimes at the time of the Professor Barrett's research, e.g. Basra, Egypt, Nigeria, Sierra Leone etc.  This and the contemporary 'Austerity' policy of the then UK Government must have put it in the 'too difficult ' box when she published her original research.

 

I think the fact the CWGC Director-General have, of necessity, 'accepted and embraced' each of the ten recommendations of the Committee but  may be storing up hostages to fortune, the most glaring  example is 'flexibility in evidence criteria for specific non-commemoration cases'. 

Of the remainder I don't think anyone can argue with greater community engagement etc., but 'flexibility in evidence criteria' does seem a very big step from their current policy.

 

 

Thanks for a very informative post.

[ilkley remembers]

7 hours ago, kenf48 said:

It appears the MSM decided to interview David Olusoga who was not, instead.

 

Professor Barrett published her academic research in 2014 and whilst the then management of the CWGC may have considered it, even at that time there were political and economic considerations.  Public spending was being cut back and there were major issues for the CWGC in war zones (destruction of graves in Libya and Iraq for example.)

 

In fact Barrett began publishing her research in 2007 and has done so in other difficult to obtain journals. Olusoga quotes her resaerch in The Worlds War (1914) which in turn is taken from 'Race Empire and First World War Writing (2011) ed Santanu Das obtainable but expensive. 

 

Barretts research is difficult to find but there is a briefing paper online dating from 2020 which makes interesting reading and would be interested to hear the opinion of others members of the forum

 

http://www.michelebarrett.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Sent-Missing-in-Africa.pdf

[Tom Lang]

In as much that the report refers to identifying the 'historical and Imperial or Colonial attitudes which led to a much lesser adoption of the the stated principles', should this not also concern the continuance of this pervasive behaviour at CWGC today?

Can "recommendations that might assist and guide the present-day CWGC in responding to them" include mis-spelling soldiers names from different racial or ethnic backgrounds?

Presently, I have submitted a case to CWGC which highlights, amongst other things, the CWGC are mis-spelling the Scottish surnames with the prefix of 'Mc' and 'Mac' on their 'new' website.

After 3 months of emails, I have today received a reply stating:
"... my colleagues who deal with the web site etc., who said that the certificate uses capital letters for the name and is offered as a download for their personal use, it is not a formal part of the commemoration provided by CWGC.
Please be reassured that our web team are aware of the problem and will look at this in the future.
Thank you again for bringing this to our attention...".

This may appear to be of little importance to some, but if a soldier's name is McDONALD or MacDONALD, and gets mis-spelled at the CWGC as 'MCDONALD' or 'MACDONALD', this is a very important problem. Stating "Please be reassured that our web team are aware of the problem and will look at this in the future" does not remove the problem, but prolongs and enhances it.

If those (at the CWGC) cannot handle a spelling mistake in and on official documents on the CWGC website, it creates further bewilderment.

It may also be the case that "... our web team are aware of the problem...", but they are now adding to the problem as shown in the attached example.

The 1st pic is a snippet from the 'new' CWGC website.
The 2nd pic is a snippet of the soldier's MIC.
The 3rd pic is the 'old' CWGC Certificate.
The 4th pic is the 'new' CWGC Certificate.

The 5th pic is a snippet from the 'old' CWGC website.

It is my suspicion that a 'boo-boo' has been allowed by those involved in the 'new' website (whom I suspect is a third-party), and there was no full analysis of how to handle the spelling of hundreds of thousands of soldiers names with the Scottish 'Mc' and 'Mac' prefix. Now that this has been uncovered, and the "... web team are aware of the problem...", it will take more work and effort to remedy this "... in the future...".

Pervasive Racism? Ignorance? Stupidity? Un-educated? etc.

Kindest Regards,
Tom Lang.

 

 

 

 

 

[chaz]

unfortunately when computerised programmes are changed / updated there are often side effects, which can affect the operation of systems.

Ive just finished a 9 hour nightshift, our target on one machine was for 14 components done two at a time for just short of 2 hours cycle time for the pair. so in actuality 14 is not possible in a 9 hour work shift, let alone the old 12 hour shift.

Munich has deemed we have not filled in  the latest updated screen displays correctly and insist its our fault. They put timers on our programmes as well so know relevent timings.

on "their" screen we have to fill in, the have alloted 8.30pm as start time and 01.30 as finish time for the quantity, this equates to us having to fill in either 4 or 5 but 5 is incorrect as we do two at a time.so 4 means we are under performing, BUT still does not take into account their planned 14 items.

 

they know there is a problem, but the problem lies with us for not filling in the screen correct.

as for the ame variations on CWGC web site, Ancestry is just as bad, doube barreled surnames  cant be found inless a hyphen is included or is it a lower case minus.

also I know a soldiers service number from a medal, but when inserting in the box, it cant be found unless any subsequant number is included as would be a regiment and following one. 

then why, when you insert William E , you get results for William F as well as F W's as well.

 

[Tom Lang]

7 hours ago, chaz said:

unfortunately when computerised programmes are changed / updated there are often side effects, which can affect the operation of systems.

Ive just finished a 9 hour nightshift, our target on one machine was for 14 components done two at a time for just short of 2 hours cycle time for the pair. so in actuality 14 is not possible in a 9 hour work shift, let alone the old 12 hour shift.

Munich has deemed we have not filled in  the latest updated screen displays correctly and insist its our fault. They put timers on our programmes as well so know relevent timings.

on "their" screen we have to fill in, the have alloted 8.30pm as start time and 01.30 as finish time for the quantity, this equates to us having to fill in either 4 or 5 but 5 is incorrect as we do two at a time.so 4 means we are under performing, BUT still does not take into account their planned 14 items.

 

they know there is a problem, but the problem lies with us for not filling in the screen correct.

as for the ame variations on CWGC web site, Ancestry is just as bad, doube barreled surnames  cant be found inless a hyphen is included or is it a lower case minus.

also I know a soldiers service number from a medal, but when inserting in the box, it cant be found unless any subsequant number is included as would be a regiment and following one. 

then why, when you insert William E , you get results for William F as well as F W's as well.

 

It appears to me that you have an IT Management problem, but I'm not sure you are addressing 'pervasive racism'.

If those involved in an IT Project, take historical data (with it's inherent and problematic issues) and allow the data to be manipulated into another and different format, then surely there is a deeper problem of 'systemic stupidity'.

I graduated in 1980, and until my recent retirement, I have been involved in all and sundry IT systems - including foolish and stupid IT Management who don't know what day it is. I have also worked with fantastic men and women who know what they are doing.

My issue is trying to point out to the CWGC that a small piece of their data is incorrect (spelling errors, full name, missing 'age' or 'additional information').

When it comes to the spelling of a name with the Scottish pre-fix 'Mc' or 'Mac', their IT did not transpose the 'old' data to their 'new' format.

There is no need or reason to change 'McCartney' to 'MCCARTNEY' (as in my example).

But someone did - and it wasn't a computer. This was a human decision to change everything to Upper-Case.

My qualifications and experience tell me that the transfer of the 'old' to the 'new' was never tested. If any testing was done, it was never fully examined or checked. But when the data was 'correctly transposed to Upper-Case as planned' then the transfer of the data was deemed correct, and everyone went home happy with their day.

By this 'innocent' transposition of 'good' data to 'bad' data, a deeper, systemic problem is exposed.

The 'historic, pervasive, racist ignorance' is now embodied into the 'new, shiny object' that CWGC say they are aware of, and will look into in the future.

This is not a 'computer problem' but a 'human' one - one that exposes an ugly side of human nature that we all strive to remove from society.

This requires the CWGC to look 'deeper' into the 'human' decisions being made.

It is admirable that the CWGC now look to their past and seem determined to right the wrongs, but some 'wrongs' are being built into the 'present' as we speak, and these can be prevented very quickly with a fully-aware management team.

Kindest Regards,

Tom.

[kenf48]

Giving this a broad approval but it is not discussed in the Report under review which is concerned with historical non-commemoration. Once again please can we remain on topic.

 

The issues above are out of context of the report and should ,perhaps, been opened under a separate topic.

[Nick Cooper]

On 26/04/2021 at 08:06, AOK4 said:

The Germans definitely did not, as they lost their colonies.

On the contrary, they did - somewhat bizarrely - commemorate their Askaris in terracotta reliefs at the Nazi-era Lettow-Vorbeck army barracks in Hamburg. 

[Nick Cooper]

On 14/05/2021 at 01:15, Tom Lang said:

It is my suspicion that a 'boo-boo' has been allowed by those involved in the 'new' website (whom I suspect is a third-party), and there was no full analysis of how to handle the spelling of hundreds of thousands of soldiers names with the Scottish 'Mc' and 'Mac' prefix. Now that this has been uncovered, and the "... web team are aware of the problem...", it will take more work and effort to remedy this "... in the future...".

For those of us who deal with large personal datasets, Mc/Mac surnames are something of a perennial bugbear (the same as apostrophes in names), but setting up sorting, printing, or display options to accommodate them isn't actually that difficult.

[Tom Lang]

23 hours ago, Nick Cooper said:

For those of us who deal with large personal datasets, Mc/Mac surnames are something of a perennial bugbear (the same as apostrophes in names), but setting up sorting, printing, or display options to accommodate them isn't actually that difficult.

My suspicion is that SQL is being used.

The conversion took the 'source' data and converted it using the UPPER () Function.
e.g. SELECT UPPER('nonsense');
will result in 'NONSENSE'.

This will convert any and all source data items regardless.

So 'McDonald' becomes 'MCDONALD'; 'MacDonald' becomes 'MACDONALD'; as does 'McCormack' becomes 'MCCORMACK'.

The 3rd-party involved in the conversion of CWGC data 'should' know this.
A properly constructed 'If' statement to query the 'source' data prior to the resulting data would fix this.
e.g. If first-char = 'M'
        If second-char = 'c'
           convert remaining chars to Upper-Case
        endif
        If second-char = 'a' AND third-char = 'c'
           convert remaining chars to Upper-Case
        endif
     convert remaining chars to Upper-Case
     endif

Since the results are wrong, and the CWGC admits that they are aware of this, it is a double-error.

The CWGC have not announced when they will fix this error (that I am aware of). Meanwhile erroneous information is provided to the masses.

[kenf48]

16 hours ago, Tom Lang said:

My suspicion is that SQL is being used.

The conversion took the 'source' data and converted it using the UPPER () Function.
e.g. SELECT UPPER('nonsense');
will result in 'NONSENSE'.

This will convert any and all source data items regardless.

So 'McDonald' becomes 'MCDONALD'; 'MacDonald' becomes 'MACDONALD'; as does 'McCormack' becomes 'MCCORMACK'.

The 3rd-party involved in the conversion of CWGC data 'should' know this.
A properly constructed 'If' statement to query the 'source' data prior to the resulting data would fix this.
e.g. If first-char = 'M'
        If second-char = 'c'
           convert remaining chars to Upper-Case
        endif
        If second-char = 'a' AND third-char = 'c'
           convert remaining chars to Upper-Case
        endif
     convert remaining chars to Upper-Case
     endif

Since the results are wrong, and the CWGC admits that they are aware of this, it is a double-error.

The CWGC have not announced when they will fix this error (that I am aware of). Meanwhile erroneous information is provided to the masses.

In 2021 contributors were reminded to remain on topic for this thread.  It was suggested that should members wish to open a discussion on the CWGC data sets a separate topic should be opened.

As reminders to remain on topic seem to have little effect and the discussion from 2021 re-opened this topic is once again locked.

The report  which initiatted this thread remains on the CWGC website and should there be any further developments from that organisation beyond their initial response, which has also been published, we suggest a new thread.