German 'Flammenwerfer' Helmet from Verdun

[Gunner 87]

Hi Guys. I thought to post this strange and intriguing looking helmet for two reasons. Firstly, I wondered if it maybe of interest to any member that hadn't seen the item before and secondly, having shared it on a Great War historical site and receiving some understandable scepticism as to it's validity, whether anyone could add to what little information is held online. As a result of differing opinions I dug a little deeper and found it is indeed exhibited at the Memorial de Verdun, confirmed only by two small images of a display cabinet as part of a wider view of the museum, and that it appears to be fashioned, or has it's origins, from the British Siebe Gorman & Co firefighters breathing apparatus.

 

I'd be very interested to know if anyone can add anything further regarding its origin, it's official name, how many were issued and when it was first and last used. Any reference to reading material on the helmet would also be appreciated. Thanks in advance. 

 

[AOK4]

I'd say that one wouldn't be able to see from the "windows" if one would put it on its head. I say it's some kind of artistic thing.

[Gunner 87]

1 minute ago, AOK4 said:

I'd say that one wouldn't be able to see from the "windows" if one would put it on its head. I say it's some kind of artistic thing.

 

Thanks AOK4, interesting and not the first time that has been suggested. I just wonder why it appears in 'The First day Of The Battle' display at the museum http://memorial-verdun.fr/en/museumcollections/the-first-day-of-the-battle 

 

It does rather look like something from Captain Nemo!!!

[AOK4]

A lot of museum people have nowadays no idea about WWI stuff. Did you know that in the same museum there are several German wooden grave markers, but they are all from the Ypres area? And that there is a wooden water level meter on display there as well from the Yser area (it even says "Merckem" or something like that IIRC from visiting the place several years ago.

 

Jan

[GreyC]

The main German company dealing with (and in) gasprotection gear was and is Draeger of Lübeck. Still in existence and going strong.

I would expect them to have also been involved in protective gear against heat and especially smoke. I have never seen an apparatus like the one on display. As far as I know the German operators did not wear any special head gear for protection against heat. To bad Bob Lemcke can´t pitch in his thoughts.

GreyC

 

Edited 21 April , 2021 by GreyC

[Gunner 87]

On 21/04/2021 at 23:03, AOK4 said:

A lot of museum people have nowadays no idea about WWI stuff. Did you know that in the same museum there are several German wooden grave markers, but they are all from the Ypres area? And that there is a wooden water level meter on display there as well from the Yser area (it even says "Merckem" or something like that IIRC from visiting the place several years ago.

 

Jan

 

You would like to think that an item in a museum has been well researched... here is a London Fire Brigade officer wearing the Siebe Gorman & Co smoke helmet which, looking online, was developed in 1878. 

 

 

 

[egbert]

The helmet comes originally from the fire brigades. It was adopted in WWI and generally are called "König'scher Rauchhelm"

The system comprised of the helmet and a pump apparatus with long hoses to pump fresh air into the helmet for sustained ops in smoky conditions

Just google for that term

Edited 21 April , 2021 by egbert

[GreyC]

14 minutes ago, egbert said:

The system comprised of the helmet and a pump apparatus with long hoses to pump fresh air into the helmet for sustained ops in smoky conditions

Thank you for that egbert!

From the description it is obvious that it was highly impractical for use during an assault under opposing (gun)-fire. The flame-thrower teams for the larger flame-throwers were made up of three soldiers operating the device, none is described as pumping fresh air and two soldiers protecting the other three as they had their hands full and had no chance to defend themselves.

GreyC

Edited 21 April , 2021 by GreyC

[The Prussian]

Hello!

I agree with my previous speakers. I´ve never seen a thing like that. To me it doesn´t make any sense. As a gas protect it won´t be dense enough and as a self-protect for flamethrowers it would be useless. The "windows" would "mist-up" or in case of heat they could burst. No-one would create a thing like that, even with a spiked-helmet on it!

Maybe the developer of that "thing" was a forecaster of "Spaceballs"...

 

[Gunner 87]

On 21/04/2021 at 23:22, egbert said:

The helmet comes originally from the fire brigades. It was adopted in WWI and generally are called "König'scher Rauchhelm"

The system comprised of the helmet and a pump apparatus with long hoses to pump fresh air into the helmet for sustained ops in smoky conditions

Just google for that term

 

On 21/04/2021 at 23:32, GreyC said:

Thank you for that egbert!

From the description it is obvious that it was highly impractical for use during an assault under opposing (gun)-fire. The flame-thrower teams for the larger flame-throwers were made up of three soldiers operating the device, none is described as pumping fresh air and two soldiers protecting the other three as they had their hands full and had no chance to defend themselves.

GreyC

 

On 21/04/2021 at 23:37, The Prussian said:

Hello!

I agree with my previous speakers. I´ve never seen a thing like that. To me it doesn´t make any sense. As a gas protect it won´t be dense enough and as a self-protect for flamethrowers it would be useless. The "windows" would "mist-up" or in case of heat they could burst. No-one would create a thing like that, even with a spiked-helmet on it!

Maybe the developer of that "thing" was a forecaster of "Spaceballs"...

 

Thank you for you comments and opinions.  In addition, this mask has attachments for oxygen pipes which, again, makes no sense for mobile use.  My understanding is the Stosstruppen were first issued the Stahlhelm at Verdun in February 1916 and it was they who would have operated the flamethrower so would have dressed and equipped as in the photograph from the display at The Great War Exhibition, National War Memorial Park, New Zealand. The fact the helmet is in a museum in France leads to more questions than answers. 

 

[AOK4]

Another (minor) remark: why on earth would the Flammenwerfer units even use a "normal" eagle on the helmet when they were a Guard Pioneer unit?

[The Prussian]

Good point!

[Gunner 87]

48 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

Another (minor) remark: why on earth would the Flammenwerfer units even use a "normal" eagle on the helmet when they were a Guard Pioneer unit?

 

Thanks again Jan, I appreciate your input. The evidence doesn't appear to be in the helmets favour! Maybe it was put together by either French or German soldiers serving at Verdun as a means of entertainment then recovered after the battle and considered an artefact. It would be helpful to know how the museum describe it...

[NigelS]

I saw the helmet shown in the opening post a few years years ago and, at the time, being a bit sceptical about the museum's description; some months later I then came across this one (shown with the rest of the firefighter's protective kit) on display in a exhibition at Portsmouth Historic Dockyard which gave the correct description of it as being fire fighting equipment . When enlarged, the identification plate gives SIEBE GORMAN & Co. Ltd. LONDON S.E.1.  MANUFACTURERS OF EVERYTHING FOR SAFETY EVERYWHERE - MINE AND INDUSTRIAL SAFETY APPLIANCES. 

 

 

The question is then whether the adornments were added by fire fighters - think of the fancy  (& impractical) polished metal helmets worn by  firemen of the time  - or by someone trying to be clever & attempting to mislead as to its use & history.  Googling 'Siebe Gorman Smoke helmet' - they also developed early diving gear -  or similar, finds any number of images of the unadulterated version, but none of the 'decorated' version which indicates, at least to me, that the latter is more likely to be a one off & a fake.

 

NigelS

[FROGSMILE]

Whoever devised it they seem

to have preempted the Steampunk genre.

[Gunner 87]

14 minutes ago, NigelS said:

I saw the helmet shown in the opening post a few years years ago and, at the time, being a bit sceptical about the museum's description; some months later I then came across this one (shown with the rest of the firefighter's protective kit) on display in a exhibition at Portsmouth Historic Dockyard which gave the correct description of it as being fire fighting equipment . When enlarged, the identification plate gives SIEBE GORMAN & Co. Ltd. LONDON S.E.1.  MANUFACTURERS OF EVERYTHING FOR SAFETY EVERYWHERE - MINE AND INDUSTRIAL SAFETY APPLIANCES. 

 

 

The question is then whether the adornments were added by fire fighters - think of the fancy  (& impractical) polished metal helmets worn by  firemen of the time  - or by someone trying to be clever & attempting to mislead as to its use & history.  Googling 'Siebe Gorman Smoke helmet' - they also developed early diving gear -  or similar, finds any number of images of the unadulterated version, but none of the 'decorated' version which indicates, at least to me, that the latter is more likely to be a one off & a fake.

 

NigelS

 

Thanks NigelS, I certainly think this is either experimental a one off possibly made by soldiers for entertainment. Interestingly the museum looks like it has a detailed description in the display cabinet that would most likely end all speculation but it is too small to read and the item is not listed on the website. 

 

14 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Whoever devised it they seem

to have preempted the Steampunk genre.

 

Funnily enough, Steampunk did the recent FB post on the helmet which hasn't helped persuading doubters there maybe more to it than pure fabrication 

 

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

 

Thanks NigelS, I certainly think this is either experimental a one off possibly made by soldiers for entertainment. Interestingly the museum looks like it has a detailed description in the display cabinet that would most likely end all speculation but it is too small to read and the item is not listed on the website. 

 

 

Funnily enough, Steampunk did the recent FB post on the helmet which hasn't helped persuading doubters there maybe more to it than pure fabrication 

 

I must confess, I was never in any doubt personally that it was contrived.  Just thinking about it from a pure, military uniform and insignia perspective, I don’t think that the Imperial German Army would have contemplated for one moment cramming (literally) a pickelhaube with its imperial Eagle onto the top of an industrial style protective helmet. 

Edited 21 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[knittinganddeath]

Gunner 87, thank you for sharing this pic! If nothing else, it is a gorgeous piece of art. If the book-burning dystopia of Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451 ever came to Imperial Germany, this is what I imagine their firemen would have worn.

[Tonyb]

A rare fire fighter's helmet, manufactured by Siebe Gorman in England in the late 1800’s.

It's signed on a brass plaque “Siebe Gorman & Co, Chessington Supra”, leather and the front has doors with mica to see through. The window frame is aluminium and this is also one go the first industrial uses for aluminium (aluminium was a new and unique metal, durable, lightweight and resistant to tarnishing and at the time, it was considered quite rare and valuable). These helmet would attach to a long hose that ran to a foot operated bellows. The fireman would then go into a smokey building/room to rescue those trapped within.

In great condition, I can only notice a cut in the lower part of the mask (please see it in the pics) and currently the sliding mechanism to allow the front windows to open is blocked (I did not forced it, I’m sure it’s only a matter of patience and oil…)

This specific full face helmet was part of the safety equipment of the HMS Bullfrom, a cable ship of the British Royal Navy.

on sale on Ebay for US$2,500

Tony

[The Prussian]

Great info! Thanks a lot!!!!!

[Gunner 87]

On 22/04/2021 at 09:31, FROGSMILE said:

I must confess, I was never in any doubt personally that it was contrived.  Just thinking about it from a pure, military uniform and insignia perspective, I don’t think that the Imperial German Army would have contemplated for one moment cramming (literally) a pickelhaube with its imperial Eagle onto the top of an industrial style protective helmet. 

 

On 22/04/2021 at 19:54, knittinganddeath said:

Gunner 87, thank you for sharing this pic! If nothing else, it is a gorgeous piece of art. If the book-burning dystopia of Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451 ever came to Imperial Germany, this is what I imagine their firemen would have worn.

 

On 23/04/2021 at 03:25, Tonyb said:

A rare fire fighter's helmet, manufactured by Siebe Gorman in England in the late 1800’s.

It's signed on a brass plaque “Siebe Gorman & Co, Chessington Supra”, leather and the front has doors with mica to see through. The window frame is aluminium and this is also one go the first industrial uses for aluminium (aluminium was a new and unique metal, durable, lightweight and resistant to tarnishing and at the time, it was considered quite rare and valuable). These helmet would attach to a long hose that ran to a foot operated bellows. The fireman would then go into a smokey building/room to rescue those trapped within.

In great condition, I can only notice a cut in the lower part of the mask (please see it in the pics) and currently the sliding mechanism to allow the front windows to open is blocked (I did not forced it, I’m sure it’s only a matter of patience and oil…)

This specific full face helmet was part of the safety equipment of the HMS Bullfrom, a cable ship of the British Royal Navy.

on sale on Ebay for US$2,500

Tony

 

On 23/04/2021 at 13:04, The Prussian said:

Great info! Thanks a lot!!!!!

  

 

Thank you for all your comments. It does rather appear the helmet exhibited in the museum may well be a fabrication and it would be interesting to see how it's described on the display. The view by @FROGSMILE certainly makes sense in that would the Imperial German Army really just attach an eagle and spike from a pickelhaube to an industrial protective helmet?

 

Interestingly, German military firefighters of the period appear to have used a similar device minus the adornments as in the photograph attached. I have also added the description from a book using this image, which is in the form of a postcard, stating the device on the left was worn at the Battle of Rawa by flamethrower troops. 

 

Whatever it's origin's the helmet is certainly an interesting article.

 

 

[Gunner 87]

As a result of the interest this post generated and lack of information online I wrote to the Memorial de Verdun requesting a copy of the text that accompanies the helmet on display. The museum kindly responded today which I thought our members might like to see. 

 

 

[egbert]

On 21/04/2021 at 15:22, egbert said:

The helmet comes originally from the fire brigades. It was adopted in WWI and generally are called "König'scher Rauchhelm"

The system comprised of the helmet and a pump apparatus with long hoses to pump fresh air into the helmet for sustained ops in smoky conditions

Just google for that term

......6 days ago......

Edited 27 April , 2021 by egbert

[Gunner 87]

3 hours ago, egbert said:

......6 days ago......

 

Hi egbert, yep, completely agree with your opinion posted six days ago but thought it would be of interest to share what the museum said about the exhibit which tallies with the general consensus.