Sporran - Help with unit identification please

[TullochArd]

Apologies if we are going over old ground here...... but I have tried to find similar clues and follow ups throughout GWF and failed to get a result.  I am happy that we have three Gordon Highlanders here - although if they are wearing the brass Regulars sporran cantle/bells and badge or the Territorial white metal sporran cantle/bells and badge defeats me. 

 

Question:  What unit does the panel think the fourth soldier with the black and two white tassels is in?  The badge and diced glengarry surely precludes QOCH. 

 

[FROGSMILE]

I think it’s a pre-1908 Volunteer Battalion sporran dating back to the pre Cardwell Highland RVC. I suspect that the successor battalion of the TF by direct lineage was still making use of the variant shown. From what I can gather Grierson seems to show that the 1st Aberdeenshire RVC wore such a sporran for a period.  As you know auxiliary units hung on to and used all sorts of obsolescent items.
 

 

 

[TullochArd]

...... thanks for that Frogsmile.  Makes a lot of sense.  I will continue the hunt through the rather bewildering Gordons post militia Territorial orbat.  From what I can gather, by it's absence, is that it is not a common item.  

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, TullochArd said:

...... thanks for that Frogsmile.  Makes a lot of sense.  I will continue the hunt through the rather bewildering Gordons post militia Territorial orbat.  From what I can gather, by it's absence, is that it is not a common item.  

I agree that it must be quite rare.  A similar sporran was worn by Cameron Highlanders ORs at that time but he’s clearly not a Cameron from his glengarry, kilt, etc.  I don’t think that the connection is through Militia battalions, but through the Volunteer Rifle Corps within the Seaforth recruiting area - centred on Aberdeen, but also covering Banffshire and Kincardineshire.

Edited 17 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

The sporran is definitely not of pre-1881 92nd origin as these sporrans are well documented in Gardyne's History of the Gordon Highlanders.

 

A legacy sporran from the 1st Aberdeenshire RVC is possible as already noted by Frogsmile, but Grierson describes them as grey sporrans with 3 white tassels.

 

I think another strong possibility is The Royal Aberdeenshire Highlanders whose pipers wore sporrans with a black ground and 3 white tassels.  See first image below that was posted in another thread a few months ago.  Modified versions of these sporrans continued to be worn by 3rd Battalion pipers.  The second image below shows the Militia battalion at the King Street barracks around 1870.  I believe that I can discern the ORs in the ranks behind the officers wearing sporrans with white tassels on a black ground. Not definite but possible.

 

 

 

[Ron Abbott]

One of the units of the Royal Aberdeenshire Rifles did indeed wear a predominantly black sporran with two white tassles and with a plain (non-metal) cantle in the 1800s and before the Cardwell reforms.  I have seen photos attributed to them in either the late 1800s or early 1900s, but I didn't retain any.....so I can't corroborate.

 

Unfortunately, the badge on the cantle in the photo is not clear.

 

This morning the only thing I can find that tends to support it is the following.  Grey or black (?)....but definitely two tassles and not three -

 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

The Royal Aberdeenshire Highlanders was the very first sporran that I’d considered, but when scrutinised the spacing of the tassels in the original photo wasn’t right to be an oblique view with one (of three) tassels somehow out of sight.  As a result the balance of probabilities seemed to me to lie with a legacy item from one of the old VBs, although Grierson does not show any usage in the 1890s, as I’d have expected to see, so it still seems a long shot.  One other thought I had was the possibility of a Canadian unit such as that shown below, but the composition of the shot with an appearance of unit coherence (pals together) and the absence of collar insignia made that seen less likely.

[TullochArd]

Thanks to all.  I now fancy I see the outline of the badge of the 134th (48th Highlanders) Battalion CEF on the OP sporran now ......

 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, TullochArd said:

Thanks to all.  I now fancy I see the outline of the badge of the 134th (48th Highlanders) Battalion CEF on the OP sporran now ......

 

1 hour ago, TullochArd said:

 

It’s certainly not impossible if there was a time and place when Canadian Scots were alongside Imperial Gordon’s. 

Edited 18 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

Going strictly on the sporran appearance, a case could be made for one of the 48th Highlanders battalions... the 15th, 92nd, or 134th.  As already noted by Frogsmile, the CEF battalions were usually pretty consistent from November 1914 onwards in accessorizing OR uniforms with collar badges and shoulder titles (usual caveats of not always but almost always).  I see neither of these on the subject's uniform.

[FROGSMILE]

Unfortunately I think we’ve reached that stage where in a Scottish Court the finding would be “not proven” (one way, or the other).

Edited 19 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

On 18/04/2021 at 21:58, gordon92 said:

....... usually pretty consistent from November 1914 onwards in accessorizing OR uniforms with collar badges and shoulder titles (usual caveats of not always but almost always).  I see neither of these on the subject's uniform.

 

That said, the Longbranch Camp 48th Highlanders Orderly Sergeants (photo above) appear to have neither collar badges or shoulder titles en masse? 

[gordon92]

1 hour ago, TullochArd said:

 

That said, the Longbranch Camp 48th Highlanders Orderly Sergeants (photo above) appear to have neither collar badges or shoulder titles en masse? 

Long Branch Camp is near Toronto, and I would suspect this photo was taken either pre-war or early in the war. CEF battalions were formed initially at Valcartier Camp shortly before embarkation in late September to Britain. It was only after arrival in England that arrangements were made with British firms such as Tiptaft to manufacture CEF badges and titles. The upshot of this is that back in Canada it would be expected to see an absence of collar badges and titles. 

[TullochArd]

7 hours ago, gordon92 said:

Long Branch Camp is near Toronto, and I would suspect this photo was taken either pre-war or early in the war. CEF battalions were formed initially at Valcartier Camp shortly before embarkation in late September to Britain. It was only after arrival in England that arrangements were made with British firms such as Tiptaft to manufacture CEF badges and titles. The upshot of this is that back in Canada it would be expected to see an absence of collar badges and titles. 

 

TVM.

[murdoch scott]

On 18/04/2021 at 15:58, gordon92 said:

Going strictly on the sporran appearance, a case could be made for one of the 48th Highlanders battalions... the 15th, 92nd, or 134th.  As already noted by Frogsmile, the CEF battalions were usually pretty consistent from November 1914 onwards in accessorizing OR uniforms with collar badges and shoulder titles (usual caveats of not always but almost always).  I see neither of these on the subject's uniform.

my gramps was cameron highlander, wore black with 2 white tassles

 

On 17/04/2021 at 10:28, FROGSMILE said:

I think it’s a pre-1908 Volunteer Battalion sporran dating back to the pre Cardwell Highland RVC. I suspect that the successor battalion of the TF by direct lineage was still making use of the variant shown. From what I can gather Grierson seems to show that the 1st Aberdeenshire RVC wore such a sporran for a period.  As you know auxiliary units hung on to and used all sorts of obsolescent items.
 

 

 

 

[murdoch scott]

My gramps 'Murdoch Scott' was Cameron Highlander, ww1 and pre ww1. Was  piper in ww1 until they blew his fingers off, some snarky German didnt like the tune :). Then he was put in Royal Scots for duration of ww1. Two white tassles was Camerons.

Edited 12 March , 2023 by murdoch scott

[FROGSMILE]

11 hours ago, murdoch scott said:

My gramps 'Murdoch Scott' was Cameron Highlander, ww1 and pre ww1. Was  piper in ww1 until they blew his fingers off, some snarky German didnt like the tune :). Then he was put in Royal Scots for duration of ww1. Two white tassles was Camerons.

It’s always a good idea to read the whole thread else you miss conclusions that have already been reached Murdoch.  Sporrans have to be considered alongside the other dress evidence rather than in isolation.

They’re great photos of your grandfather though, thank you for posting them. 

 

Edited 13 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE