Regimental markings on a 1916 P08 Luger

[Bade]

Does anyone know how to identify which WWI German Regiment these markings (S.P.O.A.19.) on a 1916 P08 Luger are associated with?

 

[AndyBsk]

Any other stamp on receiver 1920? it could be too a police unit?

[Bade]

It has two stamps on the receiver - 1917 and 1920. I think it's had a bit of a history as there are a few other unusual marks such as a barrel stamp in English and what appears to be erased stamps where you'd normally expect Waffenamt. I've attached a few more pics to illustrate.

 

 

 

Sorry 1916 not 1917. Maybe it saw WWI service then was captured/reissued?

[Bade]

Original manufacturer was DWM

 

[AndyBsk]

Thanks wout these pictures it could be not clearly destined only by strap marking, You have there a police piece, DWM produced 1917 for Army but 1920 stamped for Executive, for this speaks various details, strange the old army imperial proofs were removed, and new english postwar proof were added on barell area.You should detailing deciphere the second letter when P so it could be Schutzpolizei Potsdam? O.Abteilung weapon nr.19, it should be asked for police equipment specialist (Wheeler, Wotka on other Luger Axis forums). When B instead of P it could be SchutzPolizei Berlin and O.Abteilung, but i dont known what is O. for? 

Edited 16 April , 2021 by AndyBsk

[Bade]

Thanks for the info. Andy.

 

I think you're correct regarding the Police link. I found a YouTube video about a similar Lugar which explains a lot: 

 

 

[Mk VII]

The usual British proof marks are present, and the Imperial ones appear to have been erased.  Some view of the l/h side would be useful. Does/did it have the Schiwy Safety? I think I can see the hole in the top of the sear bar for the rivet. 

Edited 17 April , 2021 by Mk VII

[Bade]

Thanks for the input MkVII,

 

It has the safety hole, which according to the video supports the Police Unit theory. I've also been advised the magazine is Post WWII East German, and that the removed German proof marks may indicate a Russian capture during WWII.

 

So the story so far is:

1916 made by DWM for the German Imperial Army, used during WWI

1920 refurbished for the Weimar Republic Police, 'P' Potsdam Unit? or 'P.O.' Ostpreussen Police School?

1945 WWII use

Post WWII used by East German Police?

1950s Proofed in Birmingham for commercial sale?

 

Fascinating story. Thanks to everyone for their help with this.

 

 

[AndyBsk]

I dont believe what You are listed are real:

i assume Your piece is a missmatch the sideplate is not for Schiwy safety , the old unit of Weimar was not removed and the imperial proofs would be not removed in DDR probably, the only link with GDR is the magazine, its serialed to handle? By VoPo would be sunburts proof there?

1916 started life as imperial Luger possible there was a other unit on strap of handle

1920 it was part of dearming act stamped with 1920 stamp over the old date, the use by Schutzpolizei was marked on Strap, 1933 was added the Schiwy safety, possible there was a magazine safety too, similar units of police were in NS moved to Kasernierte Polizei, it could be in war remain in area of british zone, and remained with owner in England, where it was fireproofed civilian and sometime joined with east german magazine, or its serialed to weapon, the Luger should have all parts matching. Someone removed the Schiwy safety and replaced the sideplate.

Offcoarse the deciphering of police unit is wrong Police Schools never started with S so when there is a Schutzpolizei it could be not a police school but a normal police unit, P or B denotes the location the next letters are district or Abteilung designation. 

You should disseasemble the pistol and find the serials of major parts, barell, handle, toggle,slide, sideplate, safety,magazine etc.

 

Edited 17 April , 2021 by AndyBsk

[Bade]

I think you could be right - I haven't disassembled it but externally the side plate does carry a number 95, all the other parts have a number 75 - guess this was replaced when the Schiwy safety was removed as you suggest. Being in the British Zone makes sense too.

 

Thanks for the in-depth know-how, this is my 1st time trying to decode a Luger.

[AndyBsk]

replacing parts, means the Luger could have problem by firing, its very sensitive about similar changes. there was not interchangeability in 1916 in so manner as is now by CNC maschines. Magazine when not serialed to weapon is not corect even GDR serialed the parts, it is a shooter mostly with so many stamps on barell and reciever.

[trajan]

Wacker and Gorts p.296 seem to indicate that P.O. after an S would be 'Schutzpolizei Polizeischule Ostpreussen'.

[Bade]

Thanks for the input Trajan

 

Interesting, this would be in line with 'P.O.' "Ostpreussen Police School" referenced from "German Small Arms Markings from Authentic Sources" by J.Goertz and D. Byans. 

 

I posted the same topic on 'Lugerforums' and had the following input: "Regarding the frontstrap marking, I‘ve gotten the suggestion from an expert on Weimar police in Germany that this was possibly an early stamping and the S.P. actually represents Sicherheitspolizei (security police). This abbreviation was apparently common in Sachsen. In that case the O could also be the city and the A. 19. (Abteilung 19?) the inventory marker."

 

If this was the case the 'O' could be 'Osnabrueck' District in Saxony. This area was occupied by the British at the end of WWII, which could explain how the Luger came back to the UK (and hence the Birmingham proof mark).

 

What do you think - or am I completely off the mark?

 

Curious as to why the Imperial German Army marks were erased though, btw I did find a surviving Eagle on the Breech Block.

 

 

[trajan]

2 hours ago, Bade said:

T'O' could be 'Osnabrueck' District in Saxony. This area was occupied by the British at the end of WWII

That did cross my mind - my late father-in-law was there from 1945 onwarsd.

 

Julian

[AndyBsk]

Personally never heard of Sicherheits Polizei would have similar stamp, anyway i am not expert on Luger marking, but from police SG i known that S was for Schutzpolizei. SiPo were a NS construct, Osnabruecker Abteilung is possible, but when i remember correctly Saxony used different stamps by Police. i assume more research is needed. 

[GreyC]

1 hour ago, AndyBsk said:

SiPo were a NS construct

Not really. The Sicherheitspolizei was instituted in 1919/1920 and had to be reformed in its organisation soon after, loosing its name to regain it later after the NSDAP took control.

GreyC

[AndyBsk]

SiPo has nothing to do with Schiwy safety and in period of Weimar post 1920 was replaced with SchutzPolizei.But maybe i am not corect on this.

[Bade]

Thanks for everyone's input on this - I'm learning a lot.

 

Looking into a weapon like this as a historical artifact is fascinating.

[MikB]

4 hours ago, Bade said:

Thanks for everyone's input on this - I'm learning a lot.

 

Looking into a weapon like this as a historical artifact is fascinating.

 

Seconded. Back in the 1980s I was shooting a WW1 P.08 in pistol club. Over several years it broke in 4 different ways, 3 of which I repaired successfully, but I'd never heard of the Schiwy safety. One of the other members used to demonstrate (only by dry-firing!!) how a Luger might be fired without the butt group, by pressing in the tip of the sear whilst holding by the bifurcated receiver - presumably this was specifically what the Schiwy mod was fitted to prevent?

[Bade]

Hat's off to you MikB, must've taken a bit of nerve firing a pistol of that age.

 

This Luger looks like it had a Schiwy safety at some point as it has the rivet hole. The side-plate has a different serial number to the rest of the gun, but some scratch marks on the top do correspond to the end part of the safety spring, so it could've been replaced when the safety was fitted.

 

 

[AndyBsk]

yes it locked the sear in place when dissasembled out of side plate, this plate had only minnor scratching, so the Schiwy safety was immediately removed when attached new sideplate, it would be not good work with them.

[MikB]

1 hour ago, Bade said:

Hat's off to you MikB, must've taken a bit of nerve firing a pistol of that age.

 

This Luger looks like it had a Schiwy safety at some point as it has the rivet hole. The side-plate has a different serial number to the rest of the gun, but some scratch marks on the top do correspond to the end part of the safety spring, so it could've been replaced when the safety was fitted.

 

 

No, I always felt it was safe enough - there were people who quite reguarly shot lugers in that club, and I started with minimal loads that didn't always operate the action and worked up from there. 3 of the breakages looked like failure of crystalline carbon steel - the tiny arc that retains the extractor to its crosspin, a spalled flaking of the extractor hook, and a crack to the front toggle link pin - so maybe they could be put down to materials or heat-treatment defects in 1917 production. 

 

Some folks were using British military 2z ammunition in Lugers, and that was definitely severe. Generally Lugers warned you with non-threatening breakages if they were being overstressed. There was gossip about main toggle pins shearing and sending the whole link and block assembly backwards at the shooter, but it looks unfeasible and I never heard of a documented case, so I put it down as folk tales.

Edited 26 April , 2021 by MikB