William James Honey - which regiment?

[cjnd307]

God afternoon,

 

I attach a photo of my great uncle William James ("Billy") Honey in the Great War.

He lived in Mexico. I don't know when he enlisted. The word "Private" and the years either "1917" or "1919" are written underneath and the number 2445 is written on the photo.

I do know that he was a passenger n the SS Paul to New York in Aug 1917 so perhaps he was wounded or discharged.

 

I am searching through the Medal Rolls but so far have not found a match.

 

Can anyone identify his regiment please?

HoneyWW1_Bill.Marjory.pdf

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

On 15/04/2021 at 21:30, cjnd307 said:

God afternoon,

 

I attach a photo of my great uncle William James ("Billy") Honey in the Great War.

He lived in Mexico. I don't know when he enlisted. The word "Private" and the years either "1917" or "1919" are written underneath and the number 2445 is written on the photo.

I do know that he was a passenger n the SS Paul to New York in Aug 1917 so perhaps he was wounded or discharged.

 

I am searching through the Medal Rolls but so far have not found a match.

 

Can anyone identify his regiment please?

 

 

HoneyWW1.Bill.Marjory.pdf 892.02 kB · 1 download

Artists’ Rifles (28th London Regiment).  See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artists_Rifles

 

From the National Army Museum:  

 

“The regiment was the natural choice for young men of an artistic persuasion at the outbreak of war in 1914. Artists like John and Paul Nash, the poets Edward Thomas and Wilfred Owen, and the playwright Noël Coward wore the uniform of the Artists Rifles.”

 

“In view of the calibre of men serving in its ranks, it became an officer-producing unit in 1915 and turned out over 10,000 officers for service in other regiments during the First World War.”

NB.  It would be nice if you could donate a copy of the photo here: http://www.ww1photos.org

 

[cjnd307]

Many thanks. I'll donate the photo. 

[FROGSMILE]

On 15/04/2021 at 21:59, cjnd307 said:

Many thanks. I'll donate the photo. 

I suspect he might have been with either the 2nd line, or 3rd line battalions (effectively duplicates of the 1st Line - prewar original unit - but with limits to their employment) and if the photo was taken in 1917, as it seems, then that implies he did not serve outside the U.K. but emigrated instead.  If that is so then he will not appear on medal rolls.  His companion, “Bennett” must have moved elsewhere if he was killed in action as per the annotation.

 

From the long long trail adjunct to this forum:

 

2/28th (County of London) Battalion (Artist’s Rifles)
Formed in London in August 1914. Moved to Richmond Park and went on in July 1915 to Epping Forest. Absorbed into 1/28th Bn in November 1915. 3/28th Bn was now renamed 2/28th Bn.
 

3/28th Battalion

Formed in September 1914 and moved to Richmond Park. Renamed 2/28th Bn in November. Moved to Hare Hall (Romford) in March 1916 and became No 15 Officer Cadet Battalion, not affiliated to a regiment.

 

NB.  Circumstances suggest that if the 1917 date marked on the photo is correct then it was probably taken at Hare Hall, Romford. See interesting photos: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pinterest.co.uk/amp/pin/540009811543308532/

 

The playwright RG Sherriff who wrote the iconic play set during WW1, “Journey’s End”, was in the Artists’ Rifles at Hare Hall and is pictured below.  Notice the very similar backdrop to your photo.  Even the photo's reference numbering at bottom right is in the same format.

 

 

 

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, cjnd307 said:

I attach a photo of my great uncle William James ("Billy") Honey in the Great War.

He lived in Mexico. I don't know when he enlisted. The word "Private" and the years either "1917" or "1919" are written underneath and the number 2445 is written on the photo.

The number 2445 is unlikely to be his [or Bennett's] regimental number = much more likely to be the photographer's reference number.

Finding out who "Bennett" was may help better date the photo [to prior to Bennett being KiA anyway]

:-) M

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

The number 2445 is unlikely to be his [or Bennett's] regimental number = much more likely to be the photographer's reference number.

Finding out who "Bennett" was may help better date the photo [to prior to Bennett being KiA anyway]

:-) M

 

Yes the number is clearly a photographic reference as per the similar photo of RC Sherriff.  As regards Bennett, it's quite a common surname and depending on how many there were with the Artists Rifles, without initials it will be tough to identify him.  It's likely that he died with another cap badge when sent abroad anyway.  Yet another subaltern to the slaughter probably.  I imagine that @Artists Riflesmight find this thread of interest.

Edited 15 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

I'm now heading out so haven't got time to check the many Bennetts, (including Eugene Paul who received the VC and MC and survived the war), who served with the Artists Rifles, but The regimental roll of honour and war record of the Artists' Rifles (1/28th, 2/28th and 3/28th battalions, the London Regiment T. F.) Commissions, promotions, appointments and rewards for service in the field obtained by members of the corps since 4th August, 1914) by S. Stagoll Highman is available on Archive.org.

https://archive.org/details/regimentalrollof00highiala/mode/2up

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[cjnd307]

Many thanks for this useful info.

 

Bill Honey, although born in Cornwall, lived most of his life in Mexico where his father was a iron merchant, railway owner and banker.

The family story goes that Bill joined up against his family's wishes and it looks from the Aug 1917 passenger records to New York that somehow he went back to Mexico before the end of the war.

My late father recalled visiting his Uncle Bill's hacienda in the remote Mexican mountains in the 1930s. My father had a story about when Bill sailed with him to the UK in 1952, Bill not having been there since 1917. Bill had a chili, a poached egg and a bottle of beer for breakfast every day. After only a week in London he'd had enough and Dad put him on a flight back to Mexico! He died in Mexico in 1962.

 

I'll search for Bennett's records.

 

Incidentally, the nurse on the left in the other photo is my father's cousin, Marjory Brooke. She and her parents arrived in Spain from Mexico in 1916, her father wanting to join up. They ended up in Biarritz where her father died suddenly and the mother and other siblings stayed in Biarritz until the end of the war, Marjory becoming a nurse in the military.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, cjnd307 said:

Many thanks for this useful info.

 

Bill Honey, although born in Cornwall, lived most of his life in Mexico where his father was a iron merchant, railway owner and banker.

The family story goes that Bill joined up against his family's wishes and it looks from the Aug 1917 passenger records to New York that somehow he went back to Mexico before the end of the war.

My late father recalled visiting his Uncle Bill's hacienda in the remote Mexican mountains in the 1930s. My father had a story about when Bill sailed with him to the UK in 1952, Bill not having been there since 1917. Bill had a chili, a poached egg and a bottle of beer for breakfast every day. After only a week in London he'd had enough and Dad put him on a flight back to Mexico! He died in Mexico in 1962.

 

I'll search for Bennett's records.

 

Incidentally, the nurse on the left in the other photo is my father's cousin, Marjory Brooke. She and her parents arrived in Spain from Mexico in 1916, her father wanting to join up. They ended up in Biarritz where her father died suddenly and the mother and other siblings stayed in Biarritz until the end of the war, Marjory becoming a nurse in the military.

 

 

 

An interesting story.  Quite how Uncle Bill came to be an auxiliary (part-time) soldier in the Territorial Force (TF) must be a story in itself and it's important to note that until conscription was introduced in 1916 TF soldiers were not obligated to do more than provide a home defence force.  Only specific volunteers could be deployed overseas and this led to the division of regiments into 1st, 2nd and 3rd Line.  It seems that according to the photo Uncle Bill was with the No 15 Officer Cadet Battalion in early 1917, and yet was on a boat to Mexico by the summer.  The interesting aspect then is how he came to be discharged.....

The nursing side of the family is interesting too.  Clearly that branch were all fluent Spanish speakers.  I am curious as to what Nation's nursing organisation Marjory was a part of in Biarritz.  Her uniform is not QAIMNS, but it might be British VAD.

Edited 15 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

17 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 I am curious as to what Nation's nursing organisation Marjory was a part of in Biarritz.  Her uniform is not QAIMNS, but it might be British VAD.

Bellevue was taken over by the Americans so it may well be a US nurses uniform ?

 

PS I did not get a hit on US Red Cross Nurses Files on Ancestry.

Edited 15 April , 2021 by charlie962

[cjnd307]

Here is an extract from the memoir of Marjory (known as "Markie") Brooke's sister:

 

"To make up for Daddy not having been able to do any war service, my elder sister - Markie - decided to volunteer, as a nurse in the French Red Cross. Mummy let her go, but only because the daughter of her great friend, Lily de San Carlos, was also going. However, Lily was much older than Markie - and she was very plain!  Markie lied about her age, being a big girl: she was only seven­teen - and she was never young again...  She worked in Biarritz, in the military hospital, until the last months of the War, when she was sent to the Front."

 

Lily de San Carlos is the other lady in the photo. 

[jay dubaya]

There may be more, i'll have a better look later 

 

6149 Albert Henry Bennett, commissoned 05/09/1916 - 5th Sherwoods - DoW 06/11/1916

3853 William Barney Bennett, commissioned 30/07/1915 - 8th Sherwoods - KiA 11/04/1917

761920 John Nichol Bennett, commissioned 11/03/1917 - RGA - KiA 19/05/1917

 

J

[FROGSMILE]

On 16/04/2021 at 01:10, cjnd307 said:

Here is an extract from the memoir of Marjory (known as "Markie") Brooke's sister:

 

"To make up for Daddy not having been able to do any war service, my elder sister - Markie - decided to volunteer, as a nurse in the French Red Cross. Mummy let her go, but only because the daughter of her great friend, Lily de San Carlos, was also going. However, Lily was much older than Markie - and she was very plain!  Markie lied about her age, being a big girl: she was only seven­teen - and she was never young again...  She worked in Biarritz, in the military hospital, until the last months of the War, when she was sent to the Front."

 

Lily de San Carlos is the other lady in the photo. 

 

Well the uniform seems to fit with the French Red Cross so I think that must be it.  Apparently a number of American and expat British nurses joined.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

There may be more, i'll have a better look later 

 

6149 Albert Henry Bennett, commissoned 05/09/1916 - 5th Sherwoods - DoW 06/11/1916

3853 William Barney Bennett, commissioned 30/07/1915 - 8th Sherwoods - KiA 11/04/1917

761920 John Nichol Bennett, commissioned 11/03/1917 - RGA - KiA 19/05/1917

 

J

 

The RGA chap matches most closely with the supposed date of the photo, which we know is 1917 and going by the mud underfoot before the Spring.  Just enough time for him to be commissioned and shipped out.

Edited 15 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Artists Rifles]

2445 dates the photo as Hare Hall camp early 1916. Follow link for the Facebook page I do which has many photos of the camp and other information.

 

https://www.facebook.com/artistsriflesmemorial

 

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, Artists Rifles said:

2445 dates the photo as Hare Hall camp early 1916. Follow link for the Facebook page I do which has many photos of the camp and other information.

 

https://www.facebook.com/artistsriflesmemorial

 

 

Thank you, it looks like the annotation on the photo was done later, when the memory of the writer was fading then.

Edited 15 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[jay dubaya]

6171 William James Honey, commissioned 26/09/1916, Lieutenant 4th Royal Lancaster Rgt.

[cjnd307]

Many thanks.

 

Was it from William Honey's cap badge  that you identified that he was in the Artists' Rifles?

 

I looked at the Artists' Rifles Regimental Roll of Honour and searched against "Honey". I found the attached entry for William James Honey. Might this be my great uncle?

If so, what is the link to the Royal Lancaster Regiment and is the date of 26/9/16 the date of his enrolment? 

 

I can also look in the Mexican newspapers of that time to see if there is a mention of him joining up and returning as the papers often carry articles about this family.

 

I'm looking in Mexican records to see if Bennett came from there and that might give his forenames.

 

[Artists Rifles]

The good thing about George Secretan, the Regimantal Photographer, is that he numbered his photographs so we can date them to almost the week they were taken. When Secretan died in 1919 the Association managed to buy all the glass negatives. Sadly these have now disappeared possibly lost in a fire many years ago. The one thing we do no is they are no where to be found in the archives of the museum at the barracks.

[jay dubaya]

Given the updated information on the camp and the close service numbers Albert Henry Bennett may appear to be the man.

[FROGSMILE]

On 16/04/2021 at 02:24, cjnd307 said:

Many thanks.

 

Was it from William Honey's cap badge  that you identified that he was in the Artists' Rifles?

 

I looked at the Artists' Rifles Regimental Roll of Honour and searched against "Honey". I found the attached entry for William James Honey. Might this be my great uncle?

If so, what is the link to the Royal Lancaster Regiment and is the date of 26/9/16 the date of his enrolment? 

 

 

Yes, as per the badge photo that I posted in my initial reply, did you not notice it?

 

It seems quite feasible that your uncle Bill completed his training as an officer cadet and was then posted to the TF (auxiliary) battalion of the King's Own (Royal Lancaster) Regiment that you have identified.  I enclose some images to show you how he would have been dressed when an officer.  Notice the small T under each of his collar badges marking him out as an officer of the TF and not a regular.

 

The next step is trying to find out why he left so precipitously.

[FROGSMILE]

49 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

Given the updated information on the camp and the close service numbers Albert Henry Bennett may appear to be the man.

 

Yes it looks that way Jay.

[cjnd307]

On 16/04/2021 at 03:20, FROGSMILE said:

 

Yes it looks that way Jay.

Thanks. From the War Graves Commission site, Albert Bennett's parents were 

George and Caroline Elizabeth Bennett, of 430G, Caseros, Buenos Aires, South America

Perhaps they William Honey and Albert Bennett crossed the Atlantic together.

 

So how do I trace why William Honey left for Mexico so early? The US immigration record (attached) shows him to be in good health. Could he have deserted?

 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, cjnd307 said:

Thanks. From the War Graves Commission site, Albert Bennett's parents were 

George and Caroline Elizabeth Bennett, of 430G, Caseros, Buenos Aires, South America

Perhaps they William Honey and Albert Bennett crossed the Atlantic together.

 

So how do I trace why William Honey left for Mexico so early? The US immigration record (attached) shows him to be in good health. Could he have deserted?

 

It's possible that he simply resigned his commission citing the need to carry out family business.  I'm unaware of any regulation precluding that, unlike the restrictions placed on the discharge of a soldier.  The answer should lie in the London Gazette, where the dates of all commissions and relinquishments / resignations were published. 

 

Your suggestion that Bennett and Honey were linked via South American geography and a shared sea passage seems very likely on the surface of it.

Edited 15 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

On 16/04/2021 at 02:21, jay dubaya said:

6171 William James Honey, commissioned 26/09/1916, Lieutenant 4th Royal Lancaster Rgt.

The January 1917 British Army Monthly List has two entries for 2nd Lieutenant W.J. Honey who was commissioned in the King’s Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) with seniority from the 26th September 1916.

In column 931 he is shown on the establishment of the 1/4th Battalion, Territorial Force, but there is then an additional note that he is attached to the 5th Battalion.

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103212097

Interestingly there are three other second-lieutenants shown with the same seniority date – as second lieutenants this should also be the date they were commissioned as officers.

Two of them, J.C. Stevenson and H.D. White, are also shown as attached to the 5th Battalion.

The third, A. Sciama, was then on the strength of the 3/4th.

 

On my first run through of the London Gazette I could only find Abraham Sciama.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29773/supplement/9643/data.pdf

The section header on page 9642 records him as a Cadet to be 2nd Lieutenant (on probation) from the 26th September 1916.

Scrolling back to page 9641 in the Supplement to the London Gazette, 4 October 1916, you then find:-

 

 

 

Image courtesy The London Gazette. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29773/supplement/9641/data.pdf

 

Returning to the January 1917 Monthly Army List, the second appearance for 2/Lt W.J. Honey is in column 932c. This records him as being attached to the 1/5th Battalion.

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103212109

 

Both the 1/4th Battalion and the 1/5th Battalion of The King’s Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) were out in France & Flanders, having been there since the first half of 1915.

 

1/4th Battalion

August 1914 : in Ulverston. Part of North Lancs Brigade, West Lancs Division.

April 1915 : Brigade joined 51st (Highland) Division and become 154th Brigade.

Landed at Boulogne in May 1915.

6 January 1916 : transferred to 164th Brigade, 55th (West Lancashire) Division.

 

1/5th Battalion

August 1914 : in Lancaster. Part of North Lancs Brigade, West Lancs Division.

Landed at Le Havre on 15 February 1915.

3 March 1915 : came under command of 83rd Brigade, 28th Division.

21 October 1915 : transferred to 2nd Brigade, 1st Division.

7 January 1916 : transferred to 166th Brigade, 55th (West Lancashire) Division.

Source: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/kings-own-royal-lancaster-regiment/

 

So a check of the War Diary for the 1/5 Battalion for the last three months of 1916 may turn up a record of the arrival of Honey, Stevenson & White.

 

War Diaries can currently be downloaded for free from the UK National Archive. You do need to sign in with an account, but even that can be set up as part of placing your first order. No financial details are required.

 

The part of the Diary you need covers from November 1915 to July 1919 and can be found here:-

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354896

 

It may also give some clue as to why he left the Army.

 

There can be a bit of a time lag in the Monthly Army List, so I then took at look at the August 1917 edition – prepared at the end of July, so pre-dating him sailing for New York. But while I can find Stevenson and White with the 4th Battalion, attached to the 1/5th, there is no Honey.

A check of the Index shows that he is to be found in column 2395a.

There we find 2nd Lieutenant W.J. Honey, 4th Battalion, Royal Lancaster Regiment, in the Territorial Force Reserve and on retired pay.

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103176817

 

Hopefully one of the cognoscenti here will be able to explain the likely circumstances in which that might potentially come about. He hasn't however resigned his commission.

 

As an officer he would have had to apply for any service medals he was entitled to. As I can’t seem to find a Medal Index Card for him, I can only assume he chose not to apply.

 

Nothing as yet to indicate he made Lieutenant.

 

BTW – I note from the 1917 Passenger manifest that he had last been in the states, (New York), in 1915. So possibly that was when he sailed for the UK to join the Artists Rifles.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter