LCpl Joseph R. Burtt KIA Palestine? 31 Oct1917

[Tonyb]

Hi, All. We have a family conundrum. My great grandfather (Joseph Burtt) served in PWO Civil Service Rifles in 19th Century. My grandfather (Laurence Buckley Burtt) served in same unit, 1/15 London on western front 1915-1919. Joseph Burtt served in 2/15 London, the same regiment and was KIA and buried in Beesheba War Cemetary.

There are so many similarities, that we feel there must be a family connection somewhere, and in our copy of the official History of the PWO Civil Service Rifles, my grandfather made a pencil mark against young Joseph’s name.  But despite using all resources from Ancestry and looking at Nat Archives and UK census records, we cannot connect the dots. 
Any suggestions or assistance would be appreciated.

Tony Burtt (retd OF)

Oregon USA

[George Rayner]

Looking for some links...but trying to establish what you have given if you could confirm please.

 

Joseph John Thomas Burtt is your Great grand father serving in 19th Century? b1839 d 1905

Laurence Buckley Burtt is your grand father-was an M.C. and Lieutenant? b 1878 d 1963?

 

Joseph Robert Burtt was 531098 LCpl b1898 d 1917

 

Thanks

 

George

[Ivor Anderson]

It may well be that your Grandfather made the mark beside young Joseph's name because he wondered about a connection, just as you are now.  

As you probably already know - L/Cpl. Joseph Robert Burtt, 531098, 2/15th London Regiment (as on soldier's effects).

The birth of Joseph Robert Burtt was registered in Wandsworth district in Q3 1898 (1d 802). He was baptised in St. Peter's, Streatham on 11-09-1898, and his parent's were recorded as Josiah & Fanny Mary Burtt. Josiah was a baker and they were then living at 146 Sunnyhill Road. 

Joseph was not a family name in previous generations, but his mother's father was called Robert.

Josiah and Frances Mary Verrills were married at St. Leonard's, Streatham on 18th March 1894. Josiah was then 27 and a baker, address Hambro Road, Streatham. His father was also called Josiah and had been a labourer: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/2664663:1623

     According to his 1939 Census, Joseph's father Josiah was born on 22 September 1866 (d.1941). Census returns state that he was born at Brill Buckinghamshire. On the 1871 census his father Josiah was 32 (b.1838/9). In 1851 he was 13 and his father Thomas (1810-1868) was a 40 year old labourer.

Josiah (snr) married Caroline Hindes (d.1895) in 1860: https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=8913&h=13858256&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=7619

Josiah Burtt (Snr.) was baptised 30 september 1838 at Brill, Buckinghamshire (parents Thomas & Martha):

 https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/149594028:9841

Josiah was 2 in 1841 and living in Brill with his parents and grandfather Thomas (no other siblings listed in 1841):

 https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8978/images/BKMHO107_37_39-0215?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&pId=15222135

So, as you have already found, there is no obvious direct line connection. Has your family any connections with Brill in Buckinghamshire?

Your GGF Joseph seems to have been born c.1839, same as Josiah Snr. but they were not brothers. Possibly cousins?

A John Bentley Burt (age 44, b.1806?) was living with the family in 1851 - a brother of Thomas (b.1810)? https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=8860&h=4092571&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=7572

Edited 10 April , 2021 by Ivor Anderson
Additional information

[Matlock1418]

52 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

The birth of Joseph Robert Burtt was registered in Wandsworth district in Q3 1898 (1d 802). He was baptised in St. Peter's, Streatham on 11-09-1898, and his parent's were recorded as Josiah & Fanny Mary Burtt. Josiah was a baker and they were then living at 146 Sunnyhill Road. 

From WFA/Fold3 pension cards = BURTT, Joseph R, 531098, 15th Co. of London, LCpl. = After his death an Article 21(1c) [Dependant's] pension claim was made by his mother. 

Fanny Mary Burtt - 68 Corsehill Street, Streatham - Refusal No prior dependence.

:-) M

[Ivor Anderson]

That's him (CWGC insert below). His older brother Vincent Josiah Burtt (720782) served with the 24th Battalion.

Vincent was later commissioned with the RW Kent Regt in 1918. His medal roll has 'MM' beside his entry but he is not listed in the LG?: 

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=5119&h=3080325&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=2352

His younger brother Sydney Verrills Burtt was a civilian casualty during WW2: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/10712:5177

[Tonyb]

Thanks to you all for your efforts. Especially Ivor who encapsulated the issue very well.

The coincidences:

use of forenames Joseph and Thomas in both families.

both in same volunteer regiment which my ancestors had been in since before Crimea.

the mark in the book.

But no obvious connection and any common ancestor must be prior to, probably, 1830s.

There are over ten family trees on Ancestry that include Joseph KIA, but none who replied to my queries had anything new to add.

Thanks again all. I’ll live with just one more mystery of life.

Tony