5th Heavy Artillery Regiment (5. Agir Topçu Alayi) - Gallipoli

[martin75]

Hello,

I am looking for informations on this turkish artillery unit arming the coastal batteries at the entrance of the Dardanelles ; I am particularly looking for the names of the Turkish officers commanding the regiment, the two battalions and the batteries in February 1915. All I have is Binbasi Mahmut Macit Bey commanding the regiment (?),  Üstegmen Mehmet Sinasi Efendi commanding Ertugrul battery and Leutnant zur See Hans Woermann (killed 19 february then Leutnant zur See Emil Natz) for battery Orhaniye.

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

Claude

[emrezmen]

Hello, Claude

 

HQ: Seddulbahir Fort (Major Mahmut Macit)

 

1st Battalion: Seddulbahir & Ertugrul Forts (Maj. Mehmet Ali)

• 1st Battery: Seddulbahir Fort (1st Lieutenant Sevki - KIA 3.11.14 - then 1st Lt. Hafiz Ali?)
• 2nd Btry: Seddulbahir (1st Lt. Cevdet - KIA 3.11.14)
• 3rd Btry: Ertugrul Fort (1st Lt. Mehmet Sinasi)
• 4th Btry: Seddulbahir (Captain Semsettin)

 

2nd Bn: Orhaniye & Kumkale (Capt. ?)

• 5th Btry: Orhaniye (Lt. Woermann - KIA 19.02.15 - then Lt. Mehmet Kemalettin before the appointment of Lt. Natz)
• 6th Btry: Kumkale (1st. Lt. Ismail Sezai)
• 7th Btry: Kumkale (Capt. ?)

 

Sources:
-Turkish Gallipoli OH, vol 1 (2012 ed.), p.66 
-Akgün, B. (2018) Boğaz'ın Fedaileri, [The Guards of the Dardanelles] vol 1, p.341

-Turkish General Staff, Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi [Journal of Military History Documents], Issue 132, Jan 2014, p. 89

 

Nothing much regarding the individuals but plenty of information about the regiment's actions in February is available in war diaries of Fortified Area Command (published 2019) and some other published documents.

 

Cheers

Emre

[martin75]

Thanks for your answer !

May I ask you if you have any information on the number and type of shells fired on February 25 by the different batteries? I have a total of 83 shells fired (74 for Ertugrul) but no more details.

Same question regarding the shells fired on March 7 by Rumili Hamidiye and Rumili Mecidiye batteries ?

Regards

Claude

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Just to add to Emre, I have these details on the 5th Heavy (Agir) Artillery Regt (Fortress) 

 

My source gave

 

5th Heavy Artillery Regt (Fortress) -

 

the only name I had was a Capt Serkis Torosyan (Armenian commander of Ertugrul Fort) no date when that was?

 

2x Bn's (1914) with 4x 240/35 fixed coastal guns + 13 Heavy (Agir) coastal guns & 6 Light guns
 

1Bn - at Sedd el Bahr

2Bn - at Kum Kale

(3Bn) - outer forts along mouth Dardanelles) * am unsure what is meant by this unit? possibly after 1915 

 

Erickson gives this in his book

 

Ammo Aug 1914 to March 1915

 

4 Heavy Guns 240/35   shells on hand  456    AP (41) HE (22) capped (59)

13 guns Heavy coastal                          1223 

6 Light guns                                          2635   
 

Hope this helps

 

I can find no source that gives what guns were in what Batteries (Forts) for these 23 guns

 

Sorry

 

I did read a break down of the ammo useage of the forts, after the March (1915) attempt some where, but I failed to find it at present, will keep looking?

 

If I remember right the guns used up most of there ammo, with little to none in reserve, many of the shells were faulty (old stock) and German ammo experts were sent to check all there ammo supplies. Things didn't improve until late 1915 when the Serbs were beaten and the rail link opened.

 

cheers

 

S.B

 

PS

 

I did read in Erickson page 18 that the 5th Heavy Regt was inactivated on the 25 Feb after its positions at Sedd el Bahr and Kum Kale where destroyed in early Feb. Most of her men were sent to the 3rd Heavy Regt

 

Erickson also gives the ammo states on usegage on pages 24 to 29 see his book "Gallipoli the Ottoman Campaign"

 

S.B

Edited 27 March , 2021 by stevebecker

[emrezmen]

Thanks for the addition Steve. Torosyan was definitely not the battery commander. It was Capt. Mehmet Hilmi (Sanlitop) for quite a long time. And it is true that the regiment was disbanded the day after 25 February. 

 

On 27/03/2021 at 00:04, martin75 said:

May I ask you if you have any information on the number and type of shells fired on February 25 by the different batteries? I have a total of 83 shells fired (74 for Ertugrul) but no more details.

Same question regarding the shells fired on March 7 by Rumili Hamidiye and Rumili Mecidiye batteries ?

 

(DFAC war diary, vol 2, p.238 - already sent you the exact name of the book)

 

Though I am not sure about their exact English equivalents, I tried my best:

 

Sert Dane: Solid AP, 215 kg

Külahlı: AP Capped, 140 kg

Tahrib: Hollow capped, 190 kg 

Eski Çelik: "Old Steel," SAPC maybe?

 

As to 7 March, currently I don't have the third volume of DFAC war diaries which will cover the events of March. I'll send a new post here if I can get the book in a next couple of days.

 

[martin75]

All my thanks to both for your help !

So battery Ertugrul fired essentially old type shells on 25 february. Five different shells were present for the 24 cm L/35

 - "old type"  :  solid AP shells (hardened cast iron) in french "obus pleins en fonte durcie" /  fuzed explosive shells in french "obus en fonte ordinaire"  /  steel shells with perforating cap  :      all   were about 215 kg / 2 crh

 - "modern type"  :  steel shells armour piercing and explosive  4 crh weighing 190 kg

The more up-to-date 140 kg shells were not avaIlable in Turkey before the end of 1915

 

Lorey (Der Krieg in den türkischen Gewässern Band 2) tells that on 19th february after death of Woermann, fire of the battery was directed by Vizefeuerwerker Joerrs who will be reprimanded for having used too high a proportion of modern shells on the 19th at the end of the day. Lorey also specifies that 5 modern shells still present at the Orhaniye battery will be brought back by truck to Anadolu Hamidiye.

For 7 th march, he specifies that the battery Anadolu Hamidiye fires 4 x 35.5 cm shells and 27 x 24 cm shells but however one can wonder if it does not take into account only the modern type of shells.

Lorey specifies also that at the date of 24 february, modern shells were brought back from the Bosphorus batteries :

 - for 35.5 cm   :  4 Panzergranate and 4 Sprenggranate

 - for 24 cm  :  28 Panzergranate  and 38 Sprenggranate

but it is not clear if those shells were brought to Anadolu Hamidiye or distributed between Anadolu Hamidiye, Rumili Hamidiye, Rumili Mecidiye and Namazgah.

 

Good day to all

 

Claude

[michaeldr]

Just now, martin75 said:

So battery Ertugrul fired essentially old type shells on 25 february. Five different shells were present for the 24 cm L/35

 - "old type"  :  solid AP shells (hardened cast iron) in french "obus pleins en fonte durcie" /  fuzed explosive shells in french "obus en fonte ordinaire"  /  steel shells with perforating cap  :      all   were about 215 kg / 2 crh

 - "modern type"  :  steel shells armour piercing and explosive  4 crh weighing 190 kg

The more up-to-date 140 kg shells were not avaIlable in Turkey before the end of 1915

 

HMS Agamemnon was hit several time by this fort during the action of 25^th February 1915. Her captain writing in The Naval Review described the Turkish shells thus:

“All their hits were from armour-piercing projectiles, with very thick walls and no burster, breaking into large fragments on impact. Their maximum range was approximately 11,000 yards, and maximum rate of fire three rounds per minute, the angle of descent being 32 degrees.”

[michaeldr]

Just now, michaeldr said:

armour-piercing projectiles, with very thick walls and no burster, breaking into large fragments on impact.

 

This photograph is taken from 'Dardanelles; a Midshipman's Diary 1915-1916' by H M Denham, published by John Murray, 1981

 

[Guest]

Claude,

 

Vizefeuerwerker Joerrs 

 

I show 

 

Joerss (Jörß)     Offizier-Stellvertreter Marine    (Vizefeuerwerker) Deputy Ordnance Technician (Fort Orhanié) at Dardanelles - Coastal Artillery took command when Lt Woermann killed 15-2-15    1914-15    shown in Klaus Wolf's Book page 87 not in lists (not identified)? 
 

There was also a;

 

Joerss (Jörß) Karl     ObLtzS Marine    Gunnery Officer Ottoman Cruiser "Hamidiye" or "Hamadiye" and SMS Goeben to Sdr-Kdo (Sonderkommando) Baty Commander RTG 1916 returned to Adjt Straits Command Canakkale 1916 RTG 1917 returned Straits Command Istanbul 1917   1914-16 1916-17 1917-18     awarded EK II 3-15 & EK I 10-15 and Ottoman Silver Liakat Medal 3-15 and silver Imtiyaz Medal 10-15 shown in Klaus Wolf's Book (not identified)? 

They are either different men or the same?

 

Cheers

 

S.B

Edited 29 March , 2021 by stevebecker