Ypres The First Battle 1914 Ian Beckett

[andigger]

I have just picked this book up after reading about it in other threads regarding resources on the opening stages of the war. I am only 50 pages into it, but enjoying every bit. Beckett so far is developing the stage, but rather than talking about the July Crisis etc, he describes the German Army, BEF, French Army, and Belgian armies that marched into battle in the Fall of 1914. He gives a brief summary of the men, their weapons, the army structure, and their dispositions in Aug. I never knew the Belgian Army was scattered to all corners of the country to defend equally against a French, British, and German invasion.

He also makes some bold conclusions, "failures of allied cooperation that had already marked the conduct of the campaign in Aug and Sept had resulted in both the fall of Antwerp and also the loss of an opportunity of freeing a larger area of Belgium from German occupation...."

He also seems to have an extensive Bibliography of reputable resources, including period material from each of the major nations, (i.e Belgian Army 1915, The War of 1914: Military Operations of Belgium.)

I am definitely learning a lot, and wonder if other Pals have gotten the chance to read the book yet themselves. Andy

ISBN 0582506123

[armourersergeant]

Andy,

Glad you like this book, i have wondered about it a few times, in fact i think i pointed it out to you in the shop at the IWM when we were there. I am still to pick it up.

regards

Arm.

Ps let me know if Beckett has an anti Haig slant to the book. In all i have seen he seems not to be a Haig lover, though he does not slag him off.

[andigger]

Arm.

I just read his first reference to Haig, and I think you are right, he might not think too highly of him, but no slagging either.

"S dour and inarticulate Scot, the 53-year old Haig aspired to replace French, using his connections to undermine French's standing in London."

What I am a little surprised about, is that so far he has also not been too kind to Smith-Dorrien, at least to this point in the book. He refers to his depression, and almost an inability to move his men at any great speed.

Andy

[armourersergeant]

Andy,

I am of the opinion that Smith-Dorrien's temper was renowned in the army in its day and has been played down as the years have gone by. To the point now where it is often passed off as grumblings, or that as it never seemed to be directed at the rank and file but usually at officers, that it was ok!

I have alot of respect for what SD did for the troops and the stand he took at Le Cateau but i think that this side of him needs a lot more attention.

regards

Arm.

[andigger]

Actually Beckett has not written much about SD's temper. Instead he only briefly mentions him (at least up to page 67) and only to say he was very depressed after his Chief of Staff dies. I am little surprised since in The Mons Star, Ascoli devotes several pages to Smith-Dorrien.

In The First Battle, I do like the attention paid to the withdrawal around Antwerp and the efforts to relieve the garrison. If for no other reason than it is so infrequently covered in any other book, at least in English.

Andy

[armourersergeant]

Actually Beckett has not written much about SD's temper. Instead he only briefly mentions him (at least up to page 67) and only to say he was very depressed after his Chief of Staff dies. I am little surprised since in The Mons Star, Ascoli devotes several pages to Smith-Dorrien.

In The First Battle, I do like the attention paid to the withdrawal around Antwerp and the efforts to relieve the garrison. If for no other reason than it is so infrequently covered in any other book, at least in English.

Andy

Forestier-Walker was his chief staff officer and he died in 1939!!!!!!

regards

Arm

[andigger]

Ok.. my memory is failing, and I need to pay better attention. I'll correct my post when I get home tonight with the correct name and position.

However Arm, since you obviously know so much, who was it who died on SD's staff in Aug/Sept that caused him to fall into a real funk? Apparently, according to Beckett, it was enough to make him close to ineffective.

Andy

[armourersergeant]

Was it his staff?

I recall someone shooting themselves but seem to remember that it was at GHQ. If it was not staff, he may have been upset by the death of an old friend like perhaps Hubert Hamilton, Major-General of 3rd division!

I am intrigued, get ya self of home and let me know who it is!

regards

Arm.

PS Hey why have you not got it with you, not an avid reader are you!!!!!

[andigger]

Seriously I debated bringing it as I walked out the door. Obviously the wrong side won out in that argument, much to my frustration at the moment.

It wasn't a shooting/suicide either. I think it was a heart attack. ?????

Andy

[armourersergeant]

Sir James Grierson, was the II corps commander who died on the way to France from a heart attack. he was one of the better officers! SD took over from him. I think Grierson was a freind of his!

Is it him?

If he had survived SD may never have gone to france until later on.

regards

Arm

[Michelle Young]

I am about to pick this one up, my Dad and Wayne have read it and enjoyed it, so hopefully I'll enjoy it too.

[andigger]

Is it him?

Could be, but it doesn't sound right either..... Hmm...This will be the first thing I do when I walk in tonight, the dog will have to wait!

Michelle, I think you will enjoy the book very much.

Arm....are you trying to drive your post count up?

Andy

[armourersergeant]

Arm....are you trying to drive your post count up?

Yep,

though on reflection, i wasnt the one who forgot the book!

Arm

[armourersergeant]

Andy,

Entry of 19th August from Lord Loch's papers shows that not only did Grierson die but that two staff officers were injured in a car accident, subsequently one of them dies.

Whilst i am sure this is not what you are talking about, if thye lost another staff officer then they were badly hurt in that department, coupled with the fact that II corps was made up from all commands etc unlike I corps which was essentially the Aldershot command and knew each other and there ways well.

regards

Arm.

[andigger]

Ahh... you are trying to run up your post count!

Just 2 hours to go until I can leave this joint, go home and check the story. Are you going to be on Forum about 10 PM (GMT)?

Andy

[andigger]

Arm. Job well done, it was Hamilton! He was wounded and killed on the Richebourg Road on 14 Oct.

"The 'terrible loss' had a profound impact on Smith-Dorrien, who wrote to his wife that he had, 'lost my right arm, for in my Army Corps he was that to me." - SD

In the book Beckett adds French's assesment of SD actions against Pulteney who he (French) described as "imperturbable and ready to do anything asked of him." Apparently SDs inability to do more with II Corps while holding an 8 mile front and no reserves, and having just taken 1000 casualties over the previous 48 hours lead some to believe he was depressed.

Andy

[armourersergeant]

Arm. Job well done, it was Hamilton! He was wounded and killed on the Richebourg Road on 14 Oct.

"The 'terrible loss' had a profound impact on Smith-Dorrien, who wrote to his wife that he had, 'lost my right arm, for in my Army Corps he was that to me." - SD

In the book Beckett adds French's assesment of SD actions against Pulteney who he (French) described as "imperturbable and ready to do anything asked of him." Apparently SDs inability to do more with II Corps while holding an 8 mile front and no reserves, and having just taken 1000 casualties over the previous 48 hours lead some to believe he was depressed.

Andy

Andy,

This quote shows just how out of touch French was. Pulteney had a nickname which was 'Putty' and that is exactly what he had between his ears! He was a corps commander in 1914 and still in 1918. he moved no where in 4 years.

I had not read this about SD concerning Hamilton and have to say it was a guess.

Happy reading.

regards

Arm.

[andigger]

A little more about the book....

I think another area where this book really adds value to current resources on the shelves today is telling both the story around the 1914 fight for Neuve Chapell and the contributions of the Indian troops.

Having recently looked into the effort to capture Neuve Chapell in 1915 I was very interested to read about the Oct 1914 battles and learn how the 1915 jumping off points came to be established. I do wih BEckett developed this statement more, "In some respects, the sector covering the coal fields around Bethune was not as strategically vital as Ypres...". Combined with Ascoli's argument in The Mons Star I think there is a great possibility that the war would have been vastly different if the BEF had been able to seize Lille and Ghent (versus Antwerp) before the stalemate set in.

I also think the story of the Indian contribution to the early battles is very interesting. Perhaps because I have read little if anything of thier contributions outside of the Spring 1915 offensive. Beckett gives them mixed reviews, siting strong hand to hand fight to capture NC village before being pushed back, also the VC won by Khudadad Khan. However there are also statistics sited from Henry Wilson that on 2 Nov 65% of all casualties in the Indian Corp were self inflicted. This develops into a statement I have a hard time believing. Is it true as Beckett states that due to poor performance that the Indian Divisions were withdrawn from France by Nov 1915?

Andy

[Michelle Young]

At the moment I'm really struggling with it. However, I have a lot going on to distract me.

[DrB]

for andigger, I think the Indians were withdrawn in 1915 for various reasons besides SIGSW. The "old apologies" make sense to me.

They provided a logistician with a real nightmare. They were out of their milieu in France and Flanders, they really belonged in "In-ja."

1. Loss of British trained officers who could speak their peculiar languages.

2. Loss of trained NCO's without solid replacements.

3. Rations were a nightmare, different rations for different religions.

4. Loss of "bullet-blocker" replacements from the home country.

5. Unhospitable weather

6. Language problems with the indigenous inhabitants.

7. Improper clothing

8. unfamiliarity with small arms. Prior to deployment, they had been issued and were comfortable with the Lee-Metford, not the SMLE.

9. Undergunned in artillery and short on ASC services

10. A medical nightmare to treat. See the previous thread on this one.

It is no wonder they were later considered to be a liability frather than an asset, although their fighting abilities were never in question (as for as my reading says)

DrB

[andigger]

Something else has struck me while reading the book....

On p 147 Beckett retells of Mjr Gen Bulfin's visit to White Chateau at 1300 on 31 Oct where he found Brig. Gen. Johnnie Gough in bed. At first read, perhaps he needed an afternoon nap (???). When you finish the paragraph and Bulfin leaves having convinced Gough to cancel the order to advance the next day Gough falls back to sleep at 1.30 AM.

Is this just an editing oversight, or was this really a 12 hr 30 min meeting. (After which I am sure most people would need a nap.

Andy

[armourersergeant]

Andy,

Does this section have a source caption, was it taken from a diary of Bulfin or some such?

I think it must be a slip of the pen!

regards

Arm.

[andigger]

Arm. Actually your question brings me to another interesting question regarding citations. For this quote in particular he cites two sources - the first is Bulfin's diary from 31 Oct and 1 Nov as kept at the PRO. The second reference is to Beckett's other book Johnnie Gough. This seems very odd indeed. Is it common for author's to site their own works?

Andy

[armourersergeant]

Andy,

I have seen this in Tim Travers 'The Killing Ground' he used his previous work as a reference. One would hope that this is only done when quoting a type of reference rather than a set peice of definate reference as if they can be quoted as 'original thinkers'

I have seen this in another work also and i am guessing/almost certain that it is in Becketts book of Gough when he quotes in connection with his book on the Curragh in which Johnnie played a part.

Very strange. I may start to quote my own ramblings when writing

regards

Arm.

[Anthony Pigott]

Just picking up on earlier parts of this thread...

Does Beckett say anything concrete about S.-D.' s performance being affected, other than repeating French's accusation (the rebuttal of which is thoroughly covered in Beckett's own 'Judgement of History')? That S.-D. was much moved by Hamilton's death is well documented (including his own 'Memories..') but being depressed in the sense of 'sad' and 'fed-up' is of course not at all the same thing as clinical depression with the implication of lethargy, impaired judgement, etc., etc.

Regards

Anthony