Norfolk Regiment, 18th September 1918

[HolyBoys]

Hello,

I have just joined the forum.  I am interested in the activities of the Norfolk Regiment during the Great War.  Right now I am researching the action on 18 September 1918 near Honon Wood and St Quentin.  I look forward to reading the huge amount of data on this site.

Sorry, should have been Holnon Wood.

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. A very interesting area, not that well visited. 

[PRC]

Hi @HolyBoys and welcome to the forum.

 

Hopefully you're already aware the War diaries can currently be downloaded for free from the National Archive. You just need to sign up for an account, (if you haven't already got one) - no financial details needed - and even that can be done as part of placing your first order.

 

This should be the part you need:- https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14053220

 

And this from The History of the Norfolk Regiment 1685-1918: Volume II by F. Lorraine Petre - Page 292 - 293 September 1918

 

Orders on the 17th were for attack on the following morning. At midnight the battalion moved forward to the South side of Holnon Wood into a quarry. Owing to the lateness of the start, a heavy barrage and rain only three companies had reached the quarry by zero hour (5.30am). These three left it at 6 am: the fourth was found later and sent to the assembly point. To reach that point the battalion had to march in parallel to the front under a barrage in the rain, and the here companies lost direction and got scattered. Only one company and two platoons of the others reached the assembly point, which was on the east side of the Holnon Wood. That Wood, with bad tracks and drenched with gas, was almost impassable, and for that reason the 71st Brigade had to go round by its south side, the 16th by the north.

 

     The 6th Division front was practically coextensive with the eastern side of the wood, and the advance was to be up 3,000 yards of slope to the heights overlooking St Quentin. About the centre was another Quadrilateral, recalling unpleasant memories of the one in the Somme battle. The 71st was to attack on the right, the 16th on the left. The left on the 71st included the Quadrilateral in its objective.

 

    At 9 am the six platoons of the Norfolk battalion advanced, but under the heavy barrage and machine gun fire of the Quadrilateral were compelled to edge off to the right where they remained in action. The remaining companies and battalion headquarters were assembled in a sunken road at 3 pm and presently the battalion was re-organised in three companies of which one was engaged at the Quadrilateral and two were held in reserve at the sunken road. The difficulties of attack were enhanced by the failure of the French to take Round and Manchester Hills on the right.

 

     Little or no progress having been made on the 18th, orders issued at 1.45am on the 19th for a renewal of the attack at 4am with the objective of capturing North Alley, in conjunction with the rest of 71st Brigade on the right and the 16th brigade on the left.

 

    Owing to the failure of the troops on the right to attack and of the 16th Brigade being held up by the Quadrilateral on the left, the companies of the Norfolk battalion who had got forward as far as midway between Douai Trench and North Alley, were compelled to retire to the former, where they remained in action for the rest of the day. A company and two platoons were withdrawn to reserve in the sunken road. There had been hard fighting and great losses on the two days and it was decided to defer further attack, pending more complete preparations for what was recognised to be much more than the rearguard action which the Germans were at first believed to be fighting.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[MikeyH]

Welcome aboard...

 

Mike.

[HolyBoys]

Thank you for the warm welcome and the prompt response to my initial post.  Also, thanks to PRC for the information.  

 

I have a copy of the Royal Norfolk Regiment WW1 history as well as the war diary for this period.  The history is a little vague regarding the actual attack and the War Diary gives little information on the operation itself, in terms of locations of sub-units. In addition I have the trench maps for this time.  

 

In combination with the trench maps and Google earth I have an  idea of the the area that 9 Norfolks were operating in on the 18th and I think I have located the sunken road where they finished up.  

 

I have acquired Operation Order 353, which is the 71st Brigade order for the attack on 18th September.  Unfortunately I have not been able to find the map that was issued with the order.  In particular I would like to know where the 'red and green lines' were located.  I also would like to see the artillery plan which was issued after the OPO. The exact start line for the attack is also unclear to me. Given the confusion following the move to the assembly area it may have been unclear to the battalion too!

 

So I have a vague idea of where 9 Norfolks were and I think I know roughly where the attack was mounted.  I would be interested i:

 

a. obtaining a copy of the OPO map.

b. An idea of of the Companies involved in the attack (accounts talk of 6 platoons.

c.  A better idea of where on the ground the started from and routes taken

 

I would be grateful for any information.  I have a couple of medals awarded to casualties from that day.

[WhiteStarLine]

HolyBoys, here is your Green Line and Red Line, courtesy of tMapper and National Library of Scotland (click to enlarge):

[WhiteStarLine]

Sunken Road: Conversion: Sheet 62b.M.34.d.90.50,Sunken Road => 49.872133, 3.244533 

[HolyBoys]

Thanks White Star Line, that is very helpful and the green and red lines now make sense.  

 

I am wondering if your location of the 'sunken road' is correct for the 18th though?  As I read it, the Battalion failed to move beyond the 'Quadrilateral' on the 18th and got as far as S3.  Could your sunken road be the point reached on 19th September? 

 

I am very grateful for your assistance.

[HolyBoys]

Hello again White Star, further to my last comment, I have looked again at the Op Order and I see that the sunken road that you have highlighted is in fact one of the 71st Brigade objectives,  which of course was not reached, rather than the sunken road used as cover on the 18th.  It all makes  sense now.  Thanks again.

[PRC]

Amongst those men of the 9th Battalion subsequently recovered from the battlefield, (and shown with no marker where they were found), were

 

Private 16296 Alexander Brown, DCM, recovered from Sheet 62b S.2.d.8.3

Corporal 18395 James Cator was recovered from Sheet 62b M.32.d.2.4 - however while he was shown as in an unmarked grave, others from the same location are shown as marked.

Private 41166 Charles Newman was also recovered from Sheet 62b M.32.d.2.4

Private 29340 George Sandall was found at Sheet 62b S.2.c.9.5

Private 22302 James Saunders was another one recovered from Sheet 62b M.32.d.2.4

Private 30736 Robert Turley was found in 1926 at Sheet 62c. X.11.c.5.9

 

4 hours ago, HolyBoys said:

b. An idea of of the Companies involved in the attack (accounts talk of 6 platoons.

 

Of the 26 men of the 9th Battalion recorded on the CWGC database as having died on the 18th September 1918, a few have surviving service records that I tried going through looking for possible records such as conduct sheets, but drew a blank - although I have to admit I didn't check them all for possible records or medical admissions on FindMyPast.

 

Another potential avenue is the three officers killed - Captain Shales Frederick Lane, Second Lieutenant Richard Legge Norton, and Lieutenant Albert Arthur Walsha.

In a list of the Battalion's officers that appears in the War Diary for July 1918 only Captain Lane is listed. All three are on the list at the end of August 1918 - Walsha arrived on the 5th August and Norton on the 25th. Typed Operation Order No.346 from August 1918 stated that in handing over their positions to American units they had been introducing into front line warfare, the Intelligence Officer of the 9th Battalion would remain with the right hand US Battalion.  (Handwritten Operation Order 33 had previously stated Captain S.F. Lane, so probably he was the Battalion Intelligence Officer.) Unfortunately nothing in the casualty list at the end of September to indicate what company they were attached to.

 

There is a long list of missing and wounded at the end of the daily entries for September in the first appendix. There is always the possibility the missing will turn up as prisoners on the International Committee of the Red Cross website, (although it's a bit late in the war, the system on the German side was starting to break down it would seem), or that the wounded were routed through one the medical facilities whose records were preserved in the 5% sample. Both of those sources can be a good route to identifying units to a Company, (and with ICRC to a Platoon Level). I also wouldn't rule out the possibility that the wounded and missing may have surviving service records which raises the small possibility that a company will be mentioned.

 

Other avenues, (of hope!) - "A" and "B" Company were to advance with one 3" Stokes Mortar from 71st Trench Mortar Battery each - may be worth checking their War Diary. (It's probably buried in the Brigade one).

All the Companys had a Machine Gun team from 6th Machine Gun Battalion attached - again may be worth checking their war diary.

The Brigade had two tanks available to support the attack up to the Green Line. The relevant units war diary may also provide some insight. A summary in available on the Landships website - it's C Company of the 2nd Battalion that you are interested in -

https://sites.google.com/site/landships/home/narratives/1918/100days/epheny---18-september-4th-army/2-battalion-18-september-1918

 

Hope some of that helps,

Peter

 

[HolyBoys]

Thanks Peter, lots of stuff to go through there.  I have two trio medal groups for the 9th Battalion.  One is to 2Lt T M Brand, listed as WIA on the 18th in the war diary and the other is 36591 Pte Vivian L Vine KIA 18 September, also listed as KIA in the diary. I think I have found most of the existing paperwork for these two, but no indication of sub unit though.

[WhiteStarLine]

6 hours ago, PRC said:

Amongst those men of the 9th Battalion subsequently recovered from the battlefield, (and shown with no marker where they were found

[HolyBoys]

17 hours ago, PRC said:

Other avenues, (of hope!) - "A" and "B" Company were to advance with one 3" Stokes Mortar from 71st Trench Mortar Battery each - may be worth checking their War Diary. (It's probably buried in the Brigade one).

All the Companys had a Machine Gun team from 6th Machine Gun Battalion attached - again may be worth checking their war diary.

The Brigade had two tanks available to support the attack up to the Green Line. The relevant units war diary may also provide some insight. A summary in available on the Landships website - it's C Company of the 2nd Battalion that you are interested in -

https://sites.google.com/site/landships/home/narratives/1918/100days/epheny---18-september-4th-army/2-battalion-18-september-1918

 

Thanks for all of this PRC, in particular the account from C Coy 2nd Bn tanks gives a further excellent insight into the action that day.  So far I have not been able to find much on 71st Trench Mortar Bty though.  I went through the whole history of 9th Norfolks to see if I could link any names to companies, with no success. Thanks again.

[HolyBoys]

11 hours ago, WhiteStarLine said:

Amongst those men of the 9th Battalion subsequently recovered from the battlefield, (and shown with no marker where they were found

Hello WhiteStarLine, these maps are fascinating and if they indicate where men actually fell it gives a good indication of where the Norfolks were in action. thank you very much.

Title change of this post.  Thank you to whomever changed the title of this thread, which is now much more appropriate.

[HolyBoys]

I have been trying to pin down the start line for the attack on 18 September 1918.  The 9th Norfolks History is a little vague on this matter.  

 

The diary for 2 Bn Tanks, states that C Company Tanks started from the northeast corner of Holnon Wood.  

 

The 2nd Bn Sherwood Foresters Diary states that they were in the assembly position at S.2.c 80.80., which I plot as the prominent cross roads (sunken roads) just to the northwest of Holnon.  See attached map.

 

Now if that sunken road is the start line, with the Norfolks being on the right of the Sherwood Foresters, that would put them to the south of this position. If this is correct then the Norfolks would have started about 300 yds to the northwest of Holnon village.  

 

Other reports suggest that Holnon itself was still held by the Germans, as this was attacked by 2 DLI (unsuccessfully). One of the objectives of C Company Tanks was to attack Badger Copse, which lies a little behind and to the left of the road (top end of the sunken road on the map).

 

Maybe there was no start line as such; is it possible that the two battalions simply advanced from their assembly positions and I am misinterpreting the term 'assembly position' .  

 

Any ideas?

[WhiteStarLine]

58 minutes ago, HolyBoys said:

Maybe there was no start line as such; is it possible that the two battalions simply advanced from their assembly positions and I am misinterpreting the term 'assembly position' .

This was a highly coordinated attack commanded by the Fourth Army, with three Corps, tanks, aircraft and artillery.  As bombardments lifted from objective to objective, there would have been a Start Line, even if on the forward edge of the Assembly Area.  The attack was across the entire army front at 5:20 am in heavy rain and precise reporting was recorded in the Fourth Army operation summary.  Start around page 31 at https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/awm-media/collection/RCDIG1002855/bundled/RCDIG1002855.pdf.

 

Sadly for your interest, the reporting around Holnon was chaotic all day but the 8pm report on the Army front line seems to indicate they were still back behind Holnon just off your map.  Here is the report and a photo of Holnon Wood, Holnon and Fayet (courtesy IWM / WFA), where you can see S.9.a.0.0 (click to enlarge):

[WhiteStarLine]

On 13/03/2021 at 20:56, PRC said:

from The History of the Norfolk Regiment 1685-1918

To supplement what Peter has quoted, there is a very detailed account posted in 2007 showing how the battalions were arranged, with the 9th Norfolk on the left, 2nd Sherwood Foresters on the right and the 1st Leicestershire Regiment in reserve. The 2nd Sherwood Foresters were to take the Green Line, the 9th Norfolks the Red Line. 

 

 

[HolyBoys]

1 hour ago, WhiteStarLine said:

This was a highly coordinated attack commanded by the Fourth Army, with three Corps, tanks, aircraft and artillery.  As bombardments lifted from objective to objective, there would have been a Start Line, even if on the forward edge of the Assembly Area. 

Thanks Whitestarline, fascinating stuff. I had not seen the 4th Army report, which gives an excellent overview of the events of the day. The photograph is especially useful and interesting.  As you, and indeed the histories state, the whole affair around Holnon was confusing on the morning of the 18th and it will likely prove impossible to tie the Norfolks down exactly.  The battalion was in an equally confused state that morning with not all elements arriving at the assembly point, having struggled to move in and around Holnon Wood the night before.

 

Thanks again, Bob

[Hookleg]

I have found this topic very useful as I have recently worked on a family tree with a soldier from the 9th Bn. Norfolk Regiment. He was 22159 Sergeant Robert Charles Cook. On the 18th September he was taking part in this assault when he was hit in the spine and was paralysed from the waist down. He was evacuated to England but sadly died on Armistice Day 11. 11. 1918.

He had been in France from 19 Feb 1916 and had been wounded at the Battle of Flers-Courcelette. He was also wounded in action on 28 April 1918 and I was wondering if anyone had any idea where the action may have taken place?

[PRC]

4 hours ago, Hookleg said:

He was also wounded in action on 28 April 1918 and I was wondering if anyone had any idea where the action may have taken place?

At the end of April 1918 they were west of Ypres and billeted around 'Goldfish Chateau', remaining there until May 12th. They also manned a strongpoint 1 kilometre southwest of the Chateau in support of the 21st Divisional front.

Cheers,
Peter

[Hookleg]

Thanks so much. He was back in action 8 weeks later, on 8th June and only lasted a further 12 weeks before being shot in the spine near Fayet, (St Quentin) according to 9th Bn war diary. About 200 were wounded killed or missing that day from the battalion. It seems amazing that they were moved over 100 km from the Ypres area in the 3 months before he was fatally wounded!

[PRC]

57 minutes ago, Hookleg said:

He was back in action 8 weeks later, on 8th June

He was 'lucky' to be returned to the same Battalion. A gap of that length would have meant medical evacuation at least as far as the coast and possibly the UK. Having recovered he would have gone through the Infantry Base Depot system in the British Base area, (Rouen\ Etaples). At that point he could have been transferred to any of the units his I.B.D. dealt with - he wouldn't automatically be returned to his last unit. Presumably details are in his surviving service record - I don't currently have access.

As to where they were, at least four of the operational orders dated 26th & 28th, attached as appendices to the April 1918 war diary, deal with the location of the 9th Battalion and give map references while the entry for the 28 gives reference Sheet 28 NW H.16.a.

The only 9th Battalion fatality on this day recorded by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission died in the UK so doesn't relate to whatever incident led to the wounding of Sergeant Cook.

Cheers,
Peter