Guest coastalwarrior Posted 3 March , 2005 Share Posted 3 March , 2005 These highly decorated shell cases (photo attached) were brought home by my grandfather. The base of one has the following stamped: ST, G, 57, April 1917, HL25. On the base of the other is ST, FN (this is in a circle), 134, Aug 1917, HL25. Can anyone identify from which artillery peice these would most likely to have been fired and what the markings stand for? Many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter B Posted 3 March , 2005 Share Posted 3 March , 2005 Hello, Have you looked at this site http://home.hetnet.nl/~supersmit/ww1/stamps2.html#headstamps You may find your answer there. I belive they are German. Hope it is of some help Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 3 March , 2005 Share Posted 3 March , 2005 Just being picky, but they are not shell cases, they are cartridge cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Tom Posted 3 March , 2005 Share Posted 3 March , 2005 Hello, Such highly decorated cases are quite common, I have seen some most elaborate examples in museums in France and Belgium. I can't comment on the markings. An indication of the calibre of the shell would help i.e the diameter of the inside of the open end. The most common German pieces were 75 mm as were the French, the British 18 pounder was similar. Regards Old Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest coastalwarrior Posted 4 March , 2005 Share Posted 4 March , 2005 Thanks for your replies Peter and Old Tom. I'll give the site Peter mentioned a try. Angie, they are shell cases, the photo perhaps does not give a true representation of their size. They are about 23cm long and the bore is roughly 70mm. Thanks to you all coastalwarrior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 4 March , 2005 Share Posted 4 March , 2005 Thanks for your replies Peter and Old Tom. I'll give the site Peter mentioned a try. Angie, they are shell cases, the photo perhaps does not give a true representation of their size. They are about 23cm long and the bore is roughly 70mm. Thanks to you all coastalwarrior There is no such thing as a "shell case". I write as a former professional in the field of land service ammunition. The part of a round of artillery ammunition consisting of the propellant charge, whether cased or bagged, is the cartidge and this is whether the round is fixed or separate. The case which contains the propellant in a cased round is the cartridge case. "Shell case" is just slang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbarchetta Posted 4 March , 2005 Share Posted 4 March , 2005 Angie, Given the almost universal nature of its use, I don't think 'shell case' counts as slang, but as 'common name', as opposed to your technically correct definition. IMHO Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlotte cardoen-descamps Posted 4 March , 2005 Share Posted 4 March , 2005 Old Tom, The most common used shell on German side was the 77 mm shell . For the French it was the 75 mm... I do believe that the cartridges shown on the picture are German ones. The toppart of German shells is going up and down (forgive my poor English to describe the shape), British cartridges do not show that pattern at the top. I am not an expert but I have learned a lot from the Belgian bomb disposal when they come to the farm to collect WW I ammunition Charlotte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 4 March , 2005 Share Posted 4 March , 2005 Certainly going by the descriptions of the markings they are of German manufacture. German 77mm cases do (mostly) have ridges at the top to correspond with ridges on the shell itself giving a more efficient seal. However, I think those ridges are more decorative - here they are larger and more widely spaced than is the norm. Besides which the cases are not tall enough for the standard 77mm and the deep lip at the base does not look right. They could be cut down cases - I cannot remember the exact dimensions but 77mm cases are certainly taller than 23cm as reported above, more like 30cm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlotte cardoen-descamps Posted 5 March , 2005 Share Posted 5 March , 2005 Hello Giles, I am having some German 77 cartridges which I just messured and they are exactely 23 cm long...Both the ridge and the lip at the base correspond with the ones I have. Turning it over, I can read the following FN (in a circle), ST,5 , NOv 1918 , FL 27. It does look exactely the same as the one on the picture, only it is not decorated as much. As I don't have a digital camera, I can not post a picture of it... Looking at the date on the cartridge, I was just wondering whether that cartridge has ever been used? This area was liberated on September 28th, 1918. I guess that this cartridge was picked up further East in Belgium or perhaps was it "recycled" from unused ammunition? Charlotte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 5 March , 2005 Share Posted 5 March , 2005 Angie, Given the almost universal nature of its use, I don't think 'shell case' counts as slang, but as 'common name', as opposed to your technically correct definition. IMHO Jim It is not "almost universal". Professionals never use it and it is a stupid term if you think about it, because the case holds the cartridge, not a shell, or shot for that matter. When I was being trained at enormous expense back in the 1970s and at your cost as a taxpayer, one of the course members used the term "shell case". I assure you after a blistering 20 minutes of army style corrective lecture, neither he, nor the rest of us present, the audience, will ever use the term. Oh, it doesn't matter much, but once you know the correct term it seems a pity to use a wrong one. Like shrapnell - commonly used for shell frag, but we know better, don't we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 5 March , 2005 Share Posted 5 March , 2005 Charlotte, Oh! I was working from memory, have not had a 77mm in my hands for a year or so. However, checking a reference you are dead right. The case is 22.9 from base to top and does indeed have a more pronounced lip. I think I was getting muddled with a French 75mm...or some similar poor excuse! Regarding the date, shell (cartridge) cases went through many manufacturing processes and were extremely expensive to produce. They were salvaged after use wherever possible and re-used. It is common to find British cases that have been used three or more times. Angies, Fair point and I am always banging on about the shrapnel one but shell case is pretty much universal amongst dealers and many collectors - certainly who I trade with. We just do not bother to use the word 'cartridge' in the middle. The 'shell' is the projectile and the 'shell case' is the brass (or otherwise) cartridge case. It may be wrong but it's what most people say! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 5 March , 2005 Share Posted 5 March , 2005 Giles, I don't care what most people say. If most people say it then most people are wrong. Why don't you help to educate them? And perhaps I have professional contempt for the trade, who quite frankly know the price of everything and the value of nothing in most cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 5 March , 2005 Share Posted 5 March , 2005 Handbags at dawn... I think we'll leave it there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 5 March , 2005 Share Posted 5 March , 2005 Just a bit more on the original question, the markings: HL is Haniel Luege of Dusseldorf (the brass factory). The dates as I am sure you will know of manufacture - April and August 1917. The ST is, I think, an inspection mark stamped during the manufacture. FN I believe is Fabrique National, denoting manufacture in Belgium under German occupation. The numbers may be batch numbers or further inspection markings. G on the other charge case may be Geschossfabrik, a German maker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arie Posted 5 March , 2005 Share Posted 5 March , 2005 Hello "St" means that the case is strengthened. St=stark=strong FN in a circle is the mark of the german manufacturer Friedrich Neumeyer. The numbers are indeed the batch numbers. Regards arie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbarchetta Posted 5 March , 2005 Share Posted 5 March , 2005 And perhaps I have professional contempt for the trade, who quite frankly know the price of everything and the value of nothing in most cases. Angie, The trade & collecting fraternity is largely responsible for the preservation of 90% of the equipment, ephemera and munitions from this conflict - if your profession need an example of a particular item, deemed worthless ninety years ago by Regimental Museums etc, then the collector will be the guy you have to turn to. Don't be so judgmental. Back to the markings, a case I have has this FN in a circle, but the date is 'April 1918' - if this is a German shell, why is the date in English ?? Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest coastalwarrior Posted 6 March , 2005 Share Posted 6 March , 2005 Oh dear, I did not mean to start a small war on the forum. My apologies to you Angie, I am no expert in the field of munitions and just referred to what my grandfather called them. If they are termed cartridge cases then I am quite happy to call them that. Many thanks to all for your replies and the trouble you have taken to answer my queries. Coastalwarrior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 6 March , 2005 Share Posted 6 March , 2005 And perhaps I have professional contempt for the trade, who quite frankly know the price of everything and the value of nothing in most cases. Angie, The trade & collecting fraternity is largely responsible for the preservation of 90% of the equipment, ephemera and munitions from this conflict - if your profession need an example of a particular item, deemed worthless ninety years ago by Regimental Museums etc, then the collector will be the guy you have to turn to. Don't be so judgmental. Back to the markings, a case I have has this FN in a circle, but the date is 'April 1918' - if this is a German shell, why is the date in English ?? Jim Munitions - well, I don't really see any need for ammunition items to be on private sale or in private collections at all. As you may guess, I am not a collector and frankly don't see the point of it. If I want to see something, I like to go to a good museum. On the other hand, my husband does operate as a dealer in another field. He is very good on prices, personally does not collect what he sells as it is just stock to him and regards all punters as potential mugs, so I see it from that side as well. Why would you want to fill your house with junk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbarchetta Posted 6 March , 2005 Share Posted 6 March , 2005 Gotta fill it with something, Angie !! The alternative is Ikea furniture and 'limited edition' china plates... ! Besides, if I don't give this junk a home, it'll be lost forever - if collectors in the past hadn't hoarded 'junk' the history of the world would be largely theory based only on supposition in the absence of any contemporary evidence...! Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JensF. Posted 17 March , 2005 Share Posted 17 March , 2005 @redbarchetta: Why is "April 1918" an english date? >>>Back to the markings, a case I have has this FN in a circle, but the date is 'April 1918' - if this is a German shell, why is the date in English ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 5 February , 2020 Share Posted 5 February , 2020 I have a similar question. I have the markings but instead of the FN marking I have a G. Can anyone help me identify the G marking please. I am not a collector so I dont know the correct technical terms to you. Have a great day and thanks for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peregrinvs Posted 5 February , 2020 Share Posted 5 February , 2020 G = Württembergische Metallwarenfabrik, Geislingen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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