John Sweeney RAMC career

[RobW]

Good morning, I am researching the life of John who enlisted in Dublin in 1902 for 3 years RAMC service with 9 years in the reserve (source "Small" book B50).   His RAMC number was 17671.  His medal card shows service in France from August 1914 (with Canadian Field Artillery) and eventual discharged with disability pension in 1919.  He also served with the Welsh Regt (61819) from 1917.

 

I have two questions:

 

Are there any ways of fleshing out his war service - for example was he the John Sweeney RAMC awarded a DCM in November 1915?  

 

Can we estimate his pension (20 % disability) in 1919?

 

 

Thanks

 

Rob

 

 

[TEW]

Not Canadian Field Artillery, more like No. 3 Cavalry Field Ambulance as per his 14 Star medal roll.

 

Seems to have been with that unit until transfer to Welsh Regiment 28/8/1917.

 

There is a diary for 3 CFA, you'll have to sign up but it's free at present. Download the diary and it should prove quite informative. May mention a DCM, may mention his wound in January 1915. Diary is 500Mb so is one of the larger ones!

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7351413

 

All records I have with pension details show 20%, expected to be nil in 3 months. It's more or less a bog standard limit set by the powers that be to keep the pension payments down.

TEW

[RobW]

Thank you very much for the clarification about the unit - sharper eyes than mine!!!   You mention a wound - where did you find the reference to that?

 

Would he have had any permanent pension given that he was a regular soldier?

 

Rob

[TEW]

He's on a casualty list of Feb 1915, usual to subtract 3-4 weeks for the injury.

 

Someone will have to check the pension records.

TEW

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, TEW said:

He's on a casualty list of Feb 1915, usual to subtract 3-4 weeks for the injury.

But with the 1914 and 1915 lists there is often a much earlier Report Date. In this case it has a Report date 13th Dec 1914.

Typically the actual wounding is a week or two before this. Still a guestimate but gets you closer to the likely action.

 

Charlie

[charlie962]

3 hours ago, RobW said:

Are there any ways of fleshing out his war service

If you look at the Medal Roll on Ancestry here you will see a list of his overseas  postings, in order of service. it is quite a good list ! (Tew is good on these units, I think)

 

It also shows another Welsh Regt number 87144, which is noted on the Medal Index Card and perhaps a 1919 issued number?

 

 

3 hours ago, RobW said:

for example was he the John Sweeney RAMC awarded a DCM in November 1915?  

Wishfull thinking. This is another man, 32674 James Sweeney . Even though the DCM man was 42nd Field Ambulance and your man was 42nd General Hospital it is still not the same.

 

Charlie

Edited 5 March , 2021 by charlie962

[charlie962]

14/15 Star Roll shows trf RAMC to 1st Bn Welsh Regt on 28/8/17 but this you already have, I think?

[TEW]

Yes, I see the full casualty list now, teach me to go by search results.

 

Also a good list of units on his pair roll. Eleven entries excluding his original arrival. The entries that notes the same unit IE. three entries for 3 CFA should equate to breaks in service and re-posted back to same unit. That could be for wounds or home leave. Ditto for 42 GH. 

 

The interesting one is Attached DDMS. This is Deputy Director Medical Services and it looks like he was at the DDMS HQ. for a spell. What role I can't say, they would rotate clerks and admin roles.

 

So, next point is we don't know which DDMS this is and things get more complex. 3 CFA were part of 1st Cavalry Division who were France/Flanders throughout. 42 GH was in Salonika as were 1st Welsh although I have no dates for their service there.

 

There is a diary for Salonika DDMS which is promising, WO 95/4819 but not available online, probably ditto for 42 GH & 1st Welsh.

 

I'll add, I think the 87144 number seems to be post Armistice but why they re-numbered the battalion I can't say.

 

So, in France Flanders with 3 CFA until unknown, then to Salonica with 42 GH, a spell at DDMS HQ, back to 42 GH then transfered to Welsh. Why a transfer from RAMC to infantry or the precise dates for all this I can't say.

 

TEW

 

 

[RobW]

Wow folks, that's moving me forward nicely!   Thank you.   The War Diary is fascinating.

 

As ever a couple of follow on questions:

 

Transfer to Welsh Regt in 1917.   Do you think this would be to the role of fighting soldier or would he have still acted as a medical orderly?

 

Any suggestions about tracking his military career before WW1, the only information I have relates to his initial enlistment in 1902 for 3 years service plus 9 years as a reservist.    However at his marriage in 1908 his occupation is given as a soldier and in the 1911 census his wife is listed as "soldiers wife".  He seems to be missing from the 1911 census.

 

Thank you again!

 

[RobW]

Ah thanks TEW I was writing when you sent that!  very impressive!

 

What is the "pair roll"?

 

RobW

[TEW]

Pair roll is my abbreviation for his British War and Victory medal roll. Both medals were issued off one roll as a pair, usually.

 

Transfer to Welsh is a little odd. What was he in pre-war? Four years ish in RAMC seems to make him specialised in that role. Once transferred to Welsh it's all guess work but medical orderly seems unlikely. They would have had a Medical Officer with a small team but whether he was needed there is unknown.

TEW

[TEW]

There seems to be a medical record for him on FMP under the 61819 Welsh number.

 

It is for an admission to 28 General Hospital, Salonica in late summer 1918. It is marked as an 'operations' book, as in - surgery.

 

I can't see any more than this I'm afraid.

TEW

[RobW]

Fantastic, that confirms his location nicely.   

 

Thanks so much for all your work I now have a much better picture than 12 hours ago! 

 

Before the war John was in the RAMC enlisting in Dublin in 1903 for a 3 year stint with 9 years on the reserve.   I suspect he served at intervals during this time (he was certainly serving in 1908 and 1911)  so that in 1914 he was in one of the first teams to go to France.   After the war John lived in Tralee Ireland.   He died in 1939 - his occupation was given as a soldier.   His post war life as an ex British soldier in Kerry must have been very difficult - there is no evidence he was involved in the war of independence or that he served as a soldier in the Irish Army

 

Thanks again

 

RobW.  

[TEW]

The FMP record if you can access it will add a more precise date, what he needed surgery for, the duration of his stay and where they discharged him to. Possibly back to his battalion.

TEW

[charlie962]

20 hours ago, RobW said:

However at his marriage in 1908 his occupation is given as a soldier and in the 1911 census his wife is listed as "soldiers wife".  He seems to be missing from the 1911 census.

Where and when was he born ?

[charlie962]

14 hours ago, TEW said:

There seems to be a medical record for him on FMP under the 61819 Welsh number.

Influenza. He is aged 39 thus born c1879.  Noted at the time as 'A' Company 1st Welsh.

[TEW]

3 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Influenza. He is aged 39 thus born c1879.  Noted at the time as 'A' Company 1st Welsh.

Oh, so it's not- MH 106/1359. Description: 28th General Hospital: British other ranks; operations?

 

Can't view the original so had to extract the piece number from FMP's link to the image.

TEW

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, TEW said:

Oh, so it's not- MH 106/1359.

Oh yes it is !

 

The 'Operations' bit is misleading. Here is the front cover of this volume, courtesy Findmypast.

 

In Sweeney's case he was transferred to 9CD from No28 GH,  - which I presume is No 9 Convalescent Depot.

 

Charlie

[RobW]

Once again thank you for all this.   For my part a clarification, a correction and a request:

 

Clarification - the best date of birth we have is 1883 - based on his marriage cert.   But his death cert suggests 1878 and his Small Book suggests 1881.   So its not certain!

 

Correction - John IS in the 1911 census.  He is working as a labourer in a Dublin iron works - but unemployed.  Is this a question of keeping his head down during a period of reserve?

 

Request - can you advise how to find the references you cite on Find my Past?  I have had no success with the medical records.

 

Thanks Again

 

RobW

[TEW]

A search with his name and 61819 under a military search should produce the medical result.

TEW