Military Discipline

[michaeldr]

Earlier today in the 'Soldiers' section Paul Guthrie asked the question re the Chinese Labour Corps: "These men where subject to military discipline. To what extent were they considered soldiers?"

Can I borrow Paul's idea and expand his original question to ask here if someone can explain for me where the line was drawn between the Army and "the rest" particularly with respect to discipline?

I have been concerned for some time by what appears to have been a major falling-out in the Zion Mule Corps between Capt. Joseph Trumpeldor and Lt-Col Patterson over the latter's allowing of corporal punishment on Gallipoli. I have been told that for the British Army, corporal punishment was done away with well before 1914. If so, what rules (if any) governed the discipline applied to units which were principally made up of none-Brits eg: ZMC, Chinese or Egyptian Labour Corps etc.?

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Michael,

As an aside to your question. It is worth noting that the last time corporal punishment was used in the British Army was on 2 Gurkhas in Burma in 1942.

Ian

[Alan Lines]

Michael

Not sure if this helps, Field Punishment No.1 was suspended on the Peninsular from 25th July 1915. (Don't think FP 1 was considered corporal punishment though?)

[Guest tintin]

The armed forces of the Empire were raised under an extraordinary variety of arrangements.

The Royal West African Frontier Force and the Kings African Rifles came under the Colonial Office, the men were directly enlisted and the officers were British Army serving under contract. I believe they had their own regulations. Sudanese troops came under the Foreign Office as sovereignty was shared with Egypt. The smaller colonies had armed forces raised under the authority of their own Governors. Local rulers sometimes had their own forces with contract Officers like in Johore.

I think Askaris in the KAR could be beaten with the heavy cane which was a pretty standard punishment for crime in East Africa.

Civilians can come under military discipline, in the Indian Army "followers" (bearers, grooms, grass cutters, char wallahs etc)had a definite legal status. Even in recent times civilians in the Sudan who misbehaved were sentenced to time in the, very small, British Military Prison in the tender care of the MPSC.

[Guest tintin]

Apologies for incomplete earlier post due to domestic emergency...

There is an interesting book about the Chinese Labour Corps called "China on the Western Front" a lot of which is about their recruitment and terms of service.

At the time of the Armistice the MPSC operated nine Military Prisons for the BEF one of which was exclusively for Chinese inmates.

[michaeldr]

Ian/Alan/Tintin

Many thanks for the above thoughts/comments which appear to indicate that 'Local' rules applied and that strictly speaking units such as these were outside of the usual Army discipline code. And that as such corporal punishment (to beat with a cane) would not necessarily have been unlawful in these units

As a matter of interest can anyone confirm with a date my earlier comment that the British Army had abolished corporal punishment prior to 1914?

Once again, many thanks

Michael D.R.