arantxa Posted 18 February , 2021 Share Posted 18 February , 2021 thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonraker Posted 18 February , 2021 Share Posted 18 February , 2021 Forty-four to choose from here though one can discount the last seven. So that's, um, 44-7=37. If someone can decipher the initial, that might help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonmate Posted 18 February , 2021 Share Posted 18 February , 2021 4th were from Ontario,might that reduce the candidates further ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regimentalrogue Posted 19 February , 2021 Share Posted 19 February , 2021 (edited) If we take "4th Canadians" to mean 4th Canadian Infantry Battalion, there is no man named Batten on the 4th Battalion's Sailing List, so it looks like he would have been a reinforcemnt to the unit. The seven-button tunic and style of shoulder straps suggest indicate an early war enlistment. Edited 19 February , 2021 by regimentalrogue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waggoner Posted 19 February , 2021 Share Posted 19 February , 2021 Moonraker provided the link to the 44 possibilities. I suggest looking through these to see if any of the details match up. All the best, Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonraker Posted 19 February , 2021 Share Posted 19 February , 2021 3 hours ago, regimentalrogue said: If we take "4th Canadians" to mean 4th Canadian Infantry Battalion, there is no man named Batten on the 4th Battalion's Sailing List, so it looks like he would have been a reinforcemnt to the unit. The seven-button tunic and style of shoulder straps suggest indicate an early war enlistment. Nor in the List of Officers and Men Serving in the First Canadian Contingent, probably compiled in early November 1914 in England (not that it is completely free of apparent anomalies). I suspect that should Arantxa or some other diligent soul plough through the service records the results may still be inconclusive, given that the initial letter is so indecipherable that I hesitate to take a stab at guessing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner 87 Posted 19 February , 2021 Share Posted 19 February , 2021 (edited) I thought to highlight this site which could could prove useful for future Canadian Expeditionary Force research. It lists, in detail, Officers, Non-Commissioned Officers and Men serving in each unit. There was no trace of Batten in the 4th Infantry Battalion so the above could mean he was serving in one of the units of the 4th Division. Care of the militaryandfamilyhistory.blog. https://militaryandfamilyhistory.blog/2016/04/18/nominal-rolls-of-the-canadian-expeditionary-force/ Edited 19 February , 2021 by Gunner 87 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regimentalrogue Posted 20 February , 2021 Share Posted 20 February , 2021 20 hours ago, Gunner 87 said: I thought to highlight this site which could could prove useful for future Canadian Expeditionary Force research. It lists, in detail, Officers, Non-Commissioned Officers and Men serving in each unit. Note that those rolls show each unit as it sailed from Canada. For any unit that went on to serve in France and Belgium, it will not list the thousands of troops they received as reinforcments through the course of the war. Those soldiers are listed with their original units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertL Posted 24 February , 2021 Share Posted 24 February , 2021 How about Frederick Batten. Common abbr. for Frederick is Fr. Wirh the r elevated. One man by that name. 65053 Fr Batten, 24th Bttn. Joined 1914. Has the picture been cropped? The 2 cut off. Right age. DOW 1916, with the 24th. I saw this as Frederick before the OP asked about the initial. Food for thought. Rob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 24 February , 2021 Share Posted 24 February , 2021 (edited) Hi All Frederick Batten, 24th Div. 65053 died at No. 3 CSS. He was born Ashton under Lyne, Lancs 27.2.1882 . but lived in Rochdale before emigrating to Canada in 1910? . Was followed by wife and daughter later. Attestation papers on Ancestry 8th Jan 1902. Was discharged from the Imperial Yeomanry 42059 on 19th Nov,1902 for being "incorrigible and worthless" after conviction by civil court for theft. Descriptive marks on discharge show "Long scar on left cheek". Surname signature on papers very close match to that on the photo. (allocation of 2/5th of pay to wife Martha Ellen before departing for South Africa) 1911 Canadian Census has family shown as Frederic Betler. etc... Has he got a covered up scar on his left cheek and a scar on his forehead in the photo? Public Tree on Ancestry here...https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/112699538/person/200100039239/facts Regards Barry Edited 24 February , 2021 by The Inspector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertL Posted 25 February , 2021 Share Posted 25 February , 2021 You're quite right that is not him. I was sitting between jobs at work for a few minutes and had only a glancing look at the service file after the thought on the name. I mistook 1882, for 1892 as DOB. Definitely wrong on that one. But I do stand by the first name of Frederick. Question for the OP. is there a photographers name on the back? Back to square one. RL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 25 February , 2021 Share Posted 25 February , 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, RobertL said: You're quite right that is not him. I was sitting between jobs at work for a few minutes and had only a glancing look at the service file after the thought on the name. I mistook 1882, for 1892 as DOB. Definitely wrong on that one. But I do stand by the first name of Frederick. Question for the OP. is there a photographers name on the back? Back to square one. RL. Hi All, RobertL....Have you looked at the signatures on the Attestation papers? I am not saying it is not him, I am suggesting it may be him! A number of the Batten family from England settled in Montreal which is where 65053's wife lived. Regards Barry Edited 25 February , 2021 by The Inspector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arantxa Posted 26 February , 2021 Author Share Posted 26 February , 2021 Gosh that is really intersting i will have anothe rook at the photo I cant believe you can find so much info Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 26 February , 2021 Share Posted 26 February , 2021 Hi All, Still searching this one. Here is a photo of Frederick Batten's younger brother Arthur in later life...I think there is a resemblance to the original photo.....comments? Regards Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 26 February , 2021 Share Posted 26 February , 2021 Can't see it myself Inspector. I also don't think the photo has been cropped to remove a phantom '2', as the photo has rounded corners, and all seem rounded still. I can't imagine that anyone could be so careless as to write '24', cut off the bottom edge, leaving only a '4', and then have the ability to produce professionally square edges and rounded corners, and leave the oval image looking absolutely symmetrical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 26 February , 2021 Share Posted 26 February , 2021 On 24/02/2021 at 22:49, The Inspector said: Hi All Frederick Batten, 24th Div. 65053 died at No. 3 CSS. He was born Ashton under Lyne, Lancs 27.2.1882 . but lived in Rochdale before emigrating to Canada in 1910? . Surname signature on papers very close match to that on the photo. 65053 Pte Frederick Batten: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/12070081/fredrick-batten JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 26 February , 2021 Share Posted 26 February , 2021 Died 21st May 1916 aged 34. What are those medal ribbons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 26 February , 2021 Share Posted 26 February , 2021 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: Died 21st May 1916 aged 34. What are those medal ribbons? Don't know. 1. The photo was added to the findagrave entry by Rochdalians Remembered - see last entry on page 6: https://www.findagrave.com/user/49907827/photos/m?page=1#memorial_56319371 You can send a message: https://www.findagrave.com/user/profile/49907827 2. Rochdale Observer - 01 July 1916: https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search/british-newspapers?date=1916-07-01&date_offsetdate=1916-07-31&newspaper=rochdale observer,rochdale times&lastname=batten&modifiedfacets=true&exactnames=true&exactkeywords=false JP Edited 26 February , 2021 by helpjpl see last entry on page 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 26 February , 2021 Share Posted 26 February , 2021 (edited) Hi All, Can't get much closer to home.... Frederick Batten , 65053, who emigrated to Canada had the QSA medal, medal award rolls , Imperial Yeomanry, Pte.42059,144th Squadron, 32nd Bn.. 25th May, 1902, Cape Colony. Would it have been forfeited after dishonourable discharge? Records state 316 days service "Forfeits all" See Ancestry Attestation papers. Can one of our techie pals put the pics. side by side? Regards Barry 21 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: Died 21st May 1916 aged 34. What are those medal ribbons? Edited 27 February , 2021 by The Inspector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 27 February , 2021 Share Posted 27 February , 2021 Hi All One for the records.. Frederick Batten was living with his future wife, Martha Ellen Taylor in 1901 at 33 Newbold St., Rochdale. Ancestry has him listed as "BATTUR", corrected. ???Attestation papers for Frederick into Imperial Yeomanry shows his marriage dated 1.12.1900? The official records show marriage 2nd qtr 1901 at Rochdale 8e,58.? Perhaps he couldn't remember. Regards Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphjd Posted 4 March , 2021 Share Posted 4 March , 2021 Been looking at this post for a few days wondering how to respond , this soldier according to his Yeomanry papers has a tattoo of a star left forearm as does the CEF attestation papers, my own personal viewpoint is that this is the same person, the KSA medal ribbon is green,white,orange the Observer photo just about shows the white stripe other colours won't show on a b/w photo, as regards the original image of Frederick in my opinion it is a square/oblong photo inserted in a photo mount with an oval cut out , the photograph has not been cut to that shape. Must go along with The Inspectors input so far. Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 4 March , 2021 Share Posted 4 March , 2021 (edited) HI All, On 26/02/2021 at 08:55, arantxa said: Gosh that is really intersting i will have anothe rook at the photo I cant believe you can find so much info Thanks Having looked at 65053 Frederick Batten's CEF files it shows he was 5'41/2" tall the same as that recorded on the Imperial Yeomanry file. The latter also shows on attestation a "Star left forearm", however on discharge states "Star on left forearm, Long scar on left cheek". The CEF files from 12 years later shows under "Tattooing...R forearm "face", L forearm star, 41/2 scar vertical L side". The photograph referred to below is from the Rochdale Observer and was in all probability obtained from Frederick Batten's relative and clearly identifies 65053. On 26/02/2021 at 11:02, helpjpl said: Don't know. 1. The photo was added to the findagrave entry by Rochdalians Remembered - see last entry on page 6: https://www.findagrave.com/user/49907827/photos/m?page=1#memorial_56319371 You can send a message: https://www.findagrave.com/user/profile/49907827 2. Rochdale Observer - 01 July 1916: https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search/british-newspapers?date=1916-07-01&date_offsetdate=1916-07-31&newspaper=rochdale observer,rochdale times&lastname=batten&modifiedfacets=true&exactnames=true&exactkeywords=false JP The original photo shows the soldier with a very pronounced vertical "scar" on the left side of the forehead down through the eyebrow. There is no doubt that Frederick Batten 65053 and 42059 Imperial Yeomanry are one and the same. All the records confirm the relationships and his movements . The possibility of two men with the same date of birth, place of birth ,the same name, having the same tattoo on their left forearm, a distinctive scar and the same height are pretty remote. Frederick actually signs his Christian name as "Fredrick" on both sets of papers. Whether or not the flowery signature on the OP photo was done by him or someone else is a matter of conjecture. In my opinion the OP photo is this man. Regarding the medals...well...there is another reason to dig a bit deeper as to what Fredrick Batten did between 1902 when he was discharged from the Yeomanry and 1910 when he emigrated. ????Did he enlist with another Regiment? He certainly didn't own up to his previous service in 1914. Searching. There is only one Frederick Batten comes up when searching the CEF files. 37 soldiers, only two with Christian name which begins with "F" and only one with no middle name. The other man, Frank Eugene Battle, an American citizen was discharged medically unfit after 3 months. Regards Barry Edited 4 March , 2021 by The Inspector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 4 March , 2021 Share Posted 4 March , 2021 2 hours ago, ralphjd said: as regards the original image of Frederick in my opinion it is a square/oblong photo inserted in a photo mount with an oval cut out , the photograph has not been cut to that shape. I must disagree. If the mount is in front of the photo, it would have to be so thin as to serve no purpose, because there is clearly no bevel or step visible anywhere around the oval rim of the photo. Additionally, the mount has been signed by person unknown, and part of the 'Batten' has encroached on to the actual photo itself. Again with no visible step rhat you might expect if the card was of any thickness. I think the Photograph is oval in shape and glued on a flat cardboard mount. Perhaps @arantxa can clarify? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 4 March , 2021 Share Posted 4 March , 2021 Hi All, PM'd arantxa. for more info. if possible. 6 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: Perhaps @arantxa can clarify? Regards Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphjd Posted 5 March , 2021 Share Posted 5 March , 2021 We live in hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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