Sister Madeleine Kemp Godwaersveldt

[Janet]

I have just finished reading Lyn Macdonald's book Passchendaele and on page 216 she refers to the tragic death of Sister Madeleine an orderly and the wounding of many soldiers.

After further research I have been unable to trace this lady but have found a nurse Elise Margaret Kemp killed in similar circumstances.

There is also some discrepancy about which Casualty clearing station she was at. Both the No 11 and the 37th are mentioned.

 

Could the name Madeleine be a typo by Lyn Macdonald? Were there two nurses with the surname Kemp? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Janet

[Jim Strawbridge]

I know of seven French nuns called Sister Madeleine who were nursing and died during the War. Is there a chance that she was one of those rather than British? Have you a date of death and/or a place where she died?

[busterfield]

The book gives her date of death as 20th October, so I'm guessing it is Sister E. M. Kemp.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/23874/E M KEMP/

Who was from New Zealand.

https://www.qaranc.co.uk/Sister-Elise-Margaret-Kemp-New-Zealand-Nurse-First-World-War-Godewaersvelde-British-Cemetery.php

Edited 14 February , 2021 by busterfield
more to add

[Janet]

Hi Jim,

As far as I can tell she was killed on 20th October and she was buried in Godwaersveldt cemetery. The people of the town went to pay their last respects to "Soeur Madeleine" which may fit into your idea that she may have been a nun.

I believe there were 3 CCS in the area.

 

Thank you

Janet

[knittinganddeath]

2 hours ago, Janet said:

Could the name Madeleine be a typo by Lyn Macdonald?

You say she may have been a nun. Is it possible that Madeleine was her religious name and Elise Margaret was her "civilian" name?

[Jim Strawbridge]

15 minutes ago, knittinganddeath said:

You say she may have been a nun. Is it possible that Madeleine was her religious name and Elise Margaret was her "civilian" name?

 

It seems that people are trying to make the situation fit the facts. Elise Kemp was not a nun with a religious name of Sister Madeleine. She was a qualified medical Sister which is not an orderly. Yes, she died on the 20th October 1917 but that was in an air attack and others were killed in that same attack. Nowhere is Elise shown as Sister Madeleine other than guessed at on here. It is more likely that Sister Madeleine was a local nun helping as an orderly (like a porter or helper in the most basic procedures such as changing dressings). Another good reason why the locals paid their last respects to her if she was well-known in the community. A note that I have is :- "Elise was normally based at 58 Casualty Clearing Station, Godewaersvelde but she was killed by an enemy aircraft bomb whilst doing temporary work at 37 Casualty Clearing Station. She and the other casualties were working in a marquee. Three orderlies and three patients also died in the bombing". So I think that Sister Madeleine was one of the orderlies mentioned. She is not one of the seven French nuns that I mentioned in an earlier post.

Edited 14 February , 2021 by Jim Strawbridge

[busterfield]

In the book referred to in the original posting, They called it Passchendaele the casualty is named as Sister Madeleine Kemp. It doesn't mention her as being an orderly, she was with an orderly when the bomb exploded.

[knittinganddeath]

3 hours ago, Jim Strawbridge said:

It seems that people are trying to make the situation fit the facts.

It's a curse of the Twitter generation to post first and think later. While I don't like to think of myself as a member of said generation, clearly it has influenced me more than I realised ;-)

[Janet]

On my original post there should have been a comma between Madeleine and an orderly. She was not an orderly.

I will keep on searching, either through the Abbaye Marie aux Monts des Cats or through some of the soldiers killed at the time, starting with Harry Basford of the Royal Garrison Artillery,

 

 

 

Jim,

Thank you for the information in your post.

[busterfield]

If you are trying to find the deaths at the same time as H Basford 93202 RGA look up war diary for 37th casualty clearing staion. It is available from the National Archives for download after registering.

WO 95/499/5

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/b9e06de4df93421c891849bf16f33ce9

Sister E. M. Kemp

Edited 15 February , 2021 by busterfield

[Janet]

Can anyone help determining the following:

 

In her book Lyn refers on page 216 to a Sister Madeleine Kemp who was killed by a bomb on a raid at the 37th CCS, on 20 October 1917. At her funeral the villagers in Godwaeresvelde referred to her as Soeur Madeleine.

 

However on the same day a nurse Elise Margaret Kemp from the Territorial Force Nursing Service was killed under the same circumstances.

Who was Madeleine Kemp? Why was Elise Kemp not mentioned in this book?

[AOK4]

Perhaps Lyn Macdonald just made a mistake with the first name?

[Guest]

Are you sure they are not one and the same person?

 

CWGC records only  Sister E.M.Kemp:

 

 

1 hour ago, Janet said:

Why was Elise Kemp not mentioned in this book?

 

2)     The only certain way is to ask the author.

 

3)   The War Diary for 37 CCS has survived and it is held at The National Archives. It has been digitised and is currently available FREE (REPETITION: FREE) to download as a generous concession from TNA while it is shut down by the  Lurgi.  Details below:

 

 

   The War Diary entry for 20th October  1917 records 2 personnel killed and one wounded.  Thus, it seems very highly likely that the 2 Kemps are one and the same person.  There is only one Kemp mentioned. 

 

 

(Easier to read from the free download!!)

 

4)  Sister E.M.Kemp is buried in the CWGC  cemetery at  Godewaersvelde, Grave reference.

 

 

 

a)  There is no other Kemp for that time-frame

 

b)  Grave I.K.5 is that of Private Mundy of 37 CCS who was also killed.  Grave I.K.4 is that of Gunner Bailey-presumed to be one of the service casualties of that incident. The War Diary does not mention  patient casualties by name throughout- but it does list casualties to its own personnel(as above)- and there is only one Kemp.

 

3)  There is only one location for  Commonwealth war graves at Godwaersvelde- which is the British  Cemetery.  Thus, if there was another Kemp at another cemetery in  that place, then why is neither another Kemp nor another cemetery identified by CWGC.?

 

Edited 17 February , 2021 by Guest

[Uncle George]

When women become nuns they often use other names, often of saints (sometimes male saints). There was an Irish woman called Theresa in the news a few years ago who went by the name ‘Sister Kevin’.

[AOK4]

I don't understand why people open several threads about the same matter...

 

 

[Michelle Young]

Duplicate threads merged.

 

[Marilyne]

I'm just going through everything I've done on my women's project before GS course and can guarantee you 200% that Elise Margaret Kemp and soeur Madeleine are most definitely two different persons !! 

As mentioned higher up, Sister Kemp, TFNS was at nb 37 in reinforcement to cope with the casualties coming in from 3rd Ypres. the hospital was bombed on the 20th October in the evening. Sister Kemp was going out on night duty, hobbling over the duckboards with her hurricane lamp she went over to the marquee that was the post-operative ward to start her service. She was killed just outside of the marquee with an orderly whom had just stepped out.

the confusion comes I think from the mix-up of the french word "soeur" which relates to nuns (in France, it were nuns who nursed ... France had no professional nursing service to speak of, the first military nursing (infirmière) service was set up in 1918. And so for four years, nuns did what they could to try and keep the men alive somehow but without any real nursing skills) and the British sense of the word "sister" as a professional nurse. 

M.

Edited 17 November , 2021 by Marilyne

[AOK4]

18 minutes ago, Marilyne said:

And so for four years, nuns blundered around in hospitals, doing, IMHO, nothing worth mentioning in terms of nursing) and the British sense of the word "sister" as a professional nurse. 

M.

I think that is an insult to the countless nuns who did their best to help the wounded and sick, not only during the war but for hundreds of years all over the world. I know of one of such local nun (a Belgian) who was highly respected by the German doctors of the Feldlazarette where she worked. She was even allowed to work in the operation room (normally strictly forbidden for non-German personel) and high ranking specialists were called in when she suffered from a severe case of sepsis, contracted during her work in the German operation room.

Jan

[Marilyne]

I don't think there is anything insulting in what I said... it's just a medical fact. 

They did what they could but they were not nurses. when I say "in terms of nursing" means the work of a nurse. They did not have the professional qualifications to do any nursing. 

I'm sure a lot of nurses were highly respected and do deserve our fullest respect but I stand by my words: they were not nurses. And let's face it: a lot of French soldiers died in hospital for lack of nursing skills to back up and follow up on the doctor's work. Luckily they had British and Americans coming in. 

But OK... I'll change my wording... 

M.

Edited 17 November , 2021 by Marilyne

[Michelle Young]

« Sister » was  used by Tommies for VADs as well. The trained nurses weren’t too amused I imagine. 

[Marilyne]

They weren't ... at least not in the beginning. 

As the war progressed and VADs started to "learn the trade", so to speak... and also started to show their worth, the attitude towards them from the professional nurses changed. 

M.