Identification of WW1 Uniform

[Nigel Simpson]

Good afternoon, I'm doing a family tree at the moment and come across these two photos of a relative from the Great War. Can anyone identify the unit please?

 

Clues: - the person lived in Derbyshire/Nottinghamshire, possibly in Nottinghamshire & Derbyshire Regiment - 8th battalion, probably enlisted 1915 ish when aged 17, possible regimental number 305975 or 66406, a private.

 

Any help, much appreciated.

 

 

[Andrew Upton]

British Red Cross Society - the picture must be post war (it has a 1920's/30's feel) as the medal ribbons he has up are the British War Medal and Victory Medal for WW1 service (so no earlier than 1919):

 

[Nigel Simpson]

That's excellent thanks Andrew. We have a few bits and bobs in a box of which a number, including one of the badge pictured, are relating to the Red Cross so that all seems to tie up.

 

From doing the tree research I found that he may have got the victory medal as part of the Nottingham and Derbyshire Regiment, then another record "Silver War Badge Record" badge number 87088.

 

I did get confused as to whether the three documents below were one and the same person from the assistance given on the site Ancestry.co.uk.

[FROGSMILE]

It’s interesting that the British Red Cross favoured annual summer training camps at that time, just like so many auxiliary organisations did.  In the days before social reform it was the nearest thing to a holiday that the largely working and lower middle class volunteers experienced. 

[Nigel Simpson]

Very impressed with the rapid answers of you both, thanks again.

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, Nigel Simpson said:

That's excellent thanks Andrew. We have a few bits and bobs in a box of which a number, including one of the badge pictured, are relating to the Red Cross so that all seems to tie up.

 

From doing the tree research I found that he may have got the victory medal as part of the Nottingham and Derbyshire Regiment, then another record "Silver War Badge Record" badge number 87088.

 

I did get confused as to whether the three documents below were one and the same person from the assistance given on the site Ancestry.co.uk.

 

 

He seems to have initially enlisted with the 1/8th Battalion Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby Regiment) Territorial Force (part-time auxiliary citizen soldiers), but quickly transferred to the RAMC, and then after less than a year’s service been discharged permanently from the Army due to sickness.  He served 4th September 1914 until 14th April 1916.

Edited 4 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Nigel Simpson]

Would he still be entitled to a victory medal even with such short service?

 

[Nigel Simpson]

I guess this must be an early photo as there is badges above his left pocket?

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Nigel Simpson said:

Would he still be entitled to a victory medal even with such short service?

 

I don’t believe so as he does not appear to have served overseas and thus has just the war badge showing an honourable discharge.  My guess is that he was quite a sickly individual as he was quickly transferred out of the infantry and did not last long with the RAMC.  He might have been unlucky.  It very probably saved his life.

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, Nigel Simpson said:

I guess this must be an early photo as there is badges above his left pocket?

No he has buttons on his pocket flaps and then at his left shoulder is a lanyard that often had a pocket device at its end, often a clasp knife but perhaps in the case of Red Cross a medical implement, I’m unsure.

 

This was his initial unit:

1/8th Battalion Sherwood Foresters.
August 1914 : in Newark. Part of Notts. & Derby Brigade in the North Midland Division. Moved on mobilisation to Harpenden and went on in November 1914 to Braintree.
25 february 1915 : landed in France.
12 May 1915 : formation became the 139th Brigade in 46th (North Midland) Division.

Edited 4 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Nigel Simpson]

He was down the pit at 13 or earlier according to the 1911 census and died at age 40.

[jay dubaya]

The Notts & Derby man is a separate individual

 

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, Nigel Simpson said:

He was down the pit at 13 or earlier according to the 1911 census and died at age 40.

Looking again I’m unclear if these are the same men as the Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby Regiment) soldier appears to have earned the war and victory medals.  It needs a genealogical detective, someone like forum member @PRC to look at the details. I’m sure he’ll happen along soon.  Ideally full name, hometown and date of birth are needed.

Edited 4 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

The Notts & Derby man is a separate individual

 

Thank you jay, I feared that might be the case.  At first glance it didn’t seem likely to be a common name.  I should have known better.

Edited 4 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Nigel Simpson]

John Edward Wagstaff born 1898, died 1938. Lived in and around Annesley Woodhouse.

 

I did think it was two different people but the genealogy website suggested all three documents for the one person. You get the chance to accept or reject each document as being relevant....which I hadn't done yet due to being confused.

[Andrew Upton]

58 minutes ago, Nigel Simpson said:

...From doing the tree research I found that he may have got the victory medal as part of the Nottingham and Derbyshire Regiment, then another record "Silver War Badge Record" badge number 87088...

 

48 minutes ago, Nigel Simpson said:

Would he still be entitled to a victory medal even with such short service?

 

 

It's worth pointing out in British service it wasn't possible to be only entitled to the Victory Medal - entitlement to that automatically meant the British War Medal was included. So on the Medal Index Cards in particular it is common to see the VM roll reference written in full and the BWM reference below merely "dittoed" into place. This can cause confusion in people translating it as only the VM having been awarded.

[PRC]

I agree with @jay dubaya (and he can quote me on that!)

 

The RAMC man was home service only, in the Army from the 4th September 1915 to the 14th April 1916.

 

The Sherwood Foresters man was in France from the 28th June 1915. A Territorial Force man, he was released back to his peace time obligation to serve, (i.e. he was “disembodied” from his unit) on the 29th January 1919.

 

These are therefore two separate individuals.

 

19 hours ago, Nigel Simpson said:

Would he still be entitled to a victory medal even with such short service?

 

 

Even if he only landed in a Theatre of War on the 11th November 1918 he would have been entitled to the British War Medal and Victory Medal – it was dates, not length of service that decided entitlement.

 

So I take it this is the 13 year old John Edward Wagstaff, born Kirkby, who was recorded living at 13 Sherwood Street, Annesby Woodhouse, Nottinghamshire on the 1911 Census of England & Wales. This was the household of his 36 year old widowed mother Annie, also born Kirkby. John was then working as an “In Coal Mine Ganger”, as was his older brother William Henry, (14). The pair also have a younger sister Rachel Annie, (7).

 

If that is the case then I’m sure you’re already aware that the 3 year old John E.Wagstaff was recorded at 11 Sherwood Street  (edit: on the 1901 Census), but it is then shown as being in Kirkby in Ashfield, while John is recorded as born Annesley Woodhouse. As well as mother Annie, (26) – now shown as born Lincoln – father Edward, (26), was also still alive. He was a Coal Miner Loader Underground, born Selston, Nottinghamshire. Completing the househouse was brother William H, (4, born Annesley Woodhouse).

 

Both residences are shown as covered by the Basford Civil Registration District.

 

Which makes the likely birth registration that of the John Edward Wagstaff, mothers maiden name Harvey, which was recorded in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1898.

(William Henry, (Q1 1897) is also recorded in the Basford District with mothers maiden name Harvey, but Rachel Annie, (Q4,1903), is recorded in the same District with mothers’ maiden name Cleverley, so a bit of a mystery. Was Rachel perhap an informal adotion from amongst extended family? Or has there been a transcription error for her mothers' maiden name?)

 

So if John was still a miner in 1914 and even early 1915, and lied about his age, as long as he was fit the Army would have taken him. The problem with that is that not only did some would be recruits lie about their age, they also lied about their names in order to stop their parents tracking them down and demanding their release.

 

However if he hadn’t gone by 1915 then the Government was increasingly becoming aware of the need to keep the mines running at full tilt to support a modern industrial war. Men were even released back from the Army to work in the mines and effectively they became exempt from conscription when this came along in 1916. The only exception came in the manpower crisis caused by the heavy losses during the German Spring Offensive starting in March 1918.  However a significant number of mineworkers conscripted in the early summer of 1918 were released early and returned to the mines, often without even serving abroad.

 

Assuming he wasn’t a Miner and didn’t lie about his age, then under the Military Services Act of 1916 he would have been liable for conscription from his 18th birthday. Given that Q1 1898 birth registration his potental birth date was from the middle of November 1897 to the 31st March 1898 – so he could have been amongst the last of the volunteers in late 1915 or an early conscript in 1916.

 

The training system by this time was changing. Most 18/19 year olds went to a Training Reserve Battalion. He wouldn’t have gone overseas to a theatre of war until he was 19 – so late 1916 \ early 1917. Most front line units that were going overseas had already been deployed by then, making it likely he was part of a replacement draft. Even if he was sent out as part of a dedicated draft, on arrival at a Base Depot in a Theatre of War he would have been sent wherever needed.

 

Which is a long-winded way of saying I wouldn’t get too hung up on him serving overseas with the Sherwood Foresters.

 

Given his later connection with the British Red Cross I did try their Great War website to see if there were any records of him volunteering his services prior to joining the Army but drew a blank. (Their records sometimes show the reason why a volunteer stopped helping, such as joining the Army).

 

I see there was a marriage of a John E. Wagstaff to an Ida Varnam recorded in the Basford District in Q4 of 1919 – presumably him? Unfortunately it’s too late to give you any details about his army role under grooms occupations but it will least give you his address prior to marriage.

 

Where that might come in helpful is trying to track him down on the 1918 Absent Voters List (AVL). The 1918 Representation of the Peoples Act is now mostly remembered for extending the vote to some women, but it’s biggest impact at the time was extending the vote to all men over 21, and over 18 if serving in the armed forces. Even those stationed in the UK were unlikely to be serving from home and so were absent voters. The 1918 Electoral Registers had to be built from scratch and so frequently relied on information received from other household members. But the entries can include rank, service number and unit. There is more on how this can help here – https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

 

Hope that gives you some ideas,

Peter

Edited 5 February , 2021 by PRC
Add reference to 1901 Census

[jay dubaya]

24 minutes ago, PRC said:

agree with @jay dubaya (and he can quote me on that!)

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you Peter and Jay, you have yet again shone light into some dark corners.

[Nigel Simpson]

12 hours ago, PRC said:

I agree with @jay dubaya (and he can quote me on that!)

 

The RAMC man was home service only, in the Army from the 4th September 1915 to the 14th April 1916.

 

The Sherwood Foresters man was in France from the 28th June 1915. A Territorial Force man, he was released back to his peace time obligation to serve, (i.e. he was “disembodied” from his unit) on the 29th January 1919.

 

These are therefore two separate individuals.

 

 

Even if he only landed in a Theatre of War on the 11th November 1918 he would have been entitled to the British War Medal and Victory Medal – it was dates, not length of service that decided entitlement.

 

So I take it this is the 13 year old John Edward Wagstaff, born Kirkby, who was recorded living at 13 Sherwood Street, Annesby Woodhouse, Nottinghamshire on the 1911 Census of England & Wales. This was the household of his 36 year old widowed mother Annie, also born Kirkby. John was then working as an “In Coal Mine Ganger”, as was his older brother William Henry, (14). The pair also have a younger sister Rachel Annie, (7).

 

If that is the case then I’m sure you’re already aware that the 3 year old John E.Wagstaff was recorded at 11 Sherwood Street but it is then shown as being in Kirkby in Ashfield, while John is recorded as born Annesley Woodhouse. As well as mother Annie, (26) – now shown as born Lincoln – father Edward, (26), was also still alive. He was a Coal Miner Loader Underground, born Selston, Nottinghamshire. Completing the househouse was brother William H, (4, born Annesley Woodhouse).

 

Both residences are shown as covered by the Basford Civil Registration District.

 

Which makes the likely birth registration that of the John Edward Wagstaff, mothers maiden name Harvey, which was recorded in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1898.

(William Henry, (Q1 1897) is also recorded in the Basford District with mothers maiden name Harvey, but Rachel Annie, (Q4,1903), is recorded in the same District with mothers’ maiden name Cleverley, so a bit of a mystery. Was Rachel perhap an informal adotion from amongst extended family? Or has there been a transcription error for her mothers' maiden name?)

 

So if John was still a miner in 1914 and even early 1915, and lied about his age, as long as he was fit the Army would have taken him. The problem with that is that not only did some would be recruits lie about their age, they also lied about their names in order to stop their parents tracking them down and demanding their release.

 

However if he hadn’t gone by 1915 then the Government was increasingly becoming aware of the need to keep the mines running at full tilt to support a modern industrial war. Men were even released back from the Army to work in the mines and effectively they became exempt from conscription when this came along in 1916. The only exception came in the manpower crisis caused by the heavy losses during the German Spring Offensive starting in March 1918.  However a significant number of mineworkers conscripted in the early summer of 1918 were released early and returned to the mines, often without even serving abroad.

 

Assuming he wasn’t a Miner and didn’t lie about his age, then under the Military Services Act of 1916 he would have been liable for conscription from his 18th birthday. Given that Q1 1898 birth registration his potental birth date was from the middle of November 1897 to the 31st March 1898 – so he could have been amongst the last of the volunteers in late 1915 or an early conscript in 1916.

 

The training system by this time was changing. Most 18/19 year olds went to a Training Reserve Battalion. He wouldn’t have gone overseas to a theatre of war until he was 19 – so late 1916 \ early 1917. Most front line units that were going overseas had already been deployed by then, making it likely he was part of a replacement draft. Even if he was sent out as part of a dedicated draft, on arrival at a Base Depot in a Theatre of War he would have been sent wherever needed.

 

Which is a long-winded way of saying I wouldn’t get too hung up on him serving overseas with the Sherwood Foresters.

 

Given his later connection with the British Red Cross I did try their Great War website to see if there were any records of him volunteering his services prior to joining the Army but drew a blank. (Their records sometimes show the reason why a volunteer stopped helping, such as joining the Army).

 

I see there was a marriage of a John E. Wagstaff to an Ida Varnam recorded in the Basford District in Q4 of 1919 – presumably him? Unfortunately it’s too late to give you any details about his army role under grooms occupations but it will least give you his address prior to marriage.

 

Where that might come in helpful is trying to track him down on the 1918 Absent Voters List (AVL). The 1918 Representation of the Peoples Act is now mostly remembered for extending the vote to some women, but it’s biggest impact at the time was extending the vote to all men over 21, and over 18 if serving in the armed forces. Even those stationed in the UK were unlikely to be serving from home and so were absent voters. The 1918 Electoral Registers had to be built from scratch and so frequently relied on information received from other household members. But the entries can include rank, service number and unit. There is more on how this can help here – https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

 

Hope that gives you some ideas,

Peter

Wow, that's pretty comprehensive and thanks. Yes, a lot of what you say I'd got from various records from memory. I'll need to print off your message and go through it properly and see how it ties in, lots of new information/clues there I think. I'll come back to you.