Looking for East Surrey Battalion

[kenf48]

19 hours ago, Laviedechateau said:

That's really helpful .

 

It would be helpful if he served in the field with the East Surrey Regiment, unfortunately he didn't.

 

As the risk of tedious repetition he was in a draft of young soldiers posted to the BEF on 21st March in a draft from the Graduated Battalion of the sister regiment the Queen's(Royal West Surrey) and transferred and renumbered to the East Surrey Regiment on arrival at the Infantry Base Depot in France.  The majority of this draft as evidenced by the Medal Roll, SDGW and surviving records were posted to the 1/21st London Regiment (First Surrey Rifles), retaining the East Surrey number as previously outlined by Steve above, on the 3rd April 1918. 

 

Attached is the military service, explicitly laid out of G/39933 of Harry King  who was in the same draft and his service with a high degree of certainty mirrors that of Pte 39812 Fox.

 

 

 

 

[Laviedechateau]

I think I'm a little lost kenf48 . Did private FOX see any action or not ? 

[kenf48]

3 minutes ago, Laviedechateau said:

I think I'm a little lost kenf48 . Did private FOX see any action or not ? 

 

It's really quite straightforward.  Conscripted at eighteen various home service units until nineteen posted to the BEF after the massive losses on March 21st, by then aged nineteen anyway.

 

By this stage of the war men were seldom, almost never, posted to France singly but in large drafts, often Company size. 

 

If you have read the links I have provided you will have seen Graduated Battalions were organised by age so a Company (the next organisational unit within a Battalion) would become eligible for active service overseas around the same time when they all reached nineteen. A Battalion = approx 900 men divided into four or even five Companies for easy maths numbering around 100/150 sometimes fewer would embark together.  This gives ample opportunities to find a few surviving records so we can assume the entire draft followed a similar route.

(For now set aside after the German Spring Offensive the Government allowed young soldiers eighteen and a half with six months training to be sent to war.)

 

This Company or reinforcement draft (drafts were numbered) arrived at the Infantry Base Depot in France, in this case Etaples which was arguably the biggest Base Depot in France.  On arrival they were posted to the 12th East Surrey Regiment (in the UK they were in the Queen's).  Men at the IBD would normally remain there for a couple of weeks, often they were posted to two or three units before the one they joined in the field.

 

This draft was a little different, these were desperate times for the BEF and so they only remained at the IBD for a few days, however during that time most were told they were not going to the 12th East Surrey after all but were to be posted to the 1/21st London.  Due to the anomaly described by Steve some time ago they retained their East Surrey numbers.

 

They then made their way to the 1/21st London, in the field joining them as shown in the war diary. 

 

He saw a great deal of action, a number in the draft were killed as the BEF regrouped and finally fought the Germans to a standstill.  As well as those whose records survive those who died help us to track the actions the Battalion was involved with.

 

 

 

[Laviedechateau]

That is now very clear kenf48 . Thank you for the time you have devoted here.

 

My grandfather Pte FOX was hospitalized in January 1920 in a (presumably military) psychiatric hospital after he re-enlisted in the Suffolk Rgt. I wonder if this was because of trauma caused by the action he saw in 1918  ? I'm sure that I will never know. 

After the War he was never treated for any psychiatric symptoms  but he did  suffer from what my grandmother called his "nerves". He never spoke about the War with my father . At the age of 8  I questioned him about his experience in the trenches as part of a school project but he said "You don't wanna know about that my boy".

My maternal grandfather (who never spoke about it with his children) was more forthcoming and I have quite a few of memories from that early age of this discussion. 

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, Laviedechateau said:

That is now very clear

 

You're welcome, have you downloaded the war diaries from TNA as previously posted?

[Laviedechateau]

My uncle has forwarded this information that I've posted below. I would appreciate your comments chaps .

[kenf48]

3 hours ago, Laviedechateau said:

I would appreciate your comments chaps .

 

The notes appear to reflect what has previously been posted here, apart from the reference to the Irish Command Depot, for which there is not context.

 

The first paragraph has been decapitated but is incorrect.  He was entitled to the BWM and VM as previously identified here on the Suffolk Regiment Roll.  These medals would be named to the first unit he was serving with when he entered a theatre of war, i.e. the East Surrey Regiment even though he did not serve in the field with that regiment.

It is also possible they were engraved to the 1/21 London.

 

Near number sampling puts his enlistment in the Suffolk Regiment post Armistice slightly earlier than June 1919.

 

 

 

[Laviedechateau]

50 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

 

 

He was entitled to the BWM and VM as previously identified here on the Suffolk Regiment Roll.  These medals would be named to the first unit he was serving with when he entered a theatre of war, i.e. the East Surrey Regiment even though he did not serve in the field with that regiment.

It is also possible they were engraved to the 1/21 London.

 

For his service during the Great War , I have only  1 medal which is the VM and engraved as you thought to the E. SURREY REG. 

Was he entitled to the BWM too ? I don't have this but I do have his India service medal from his post war service in the SUFFOLK REG.

 

 

[weshallremember]

 

born 1 quarter 1899 ???

tendring essex

 

 

Fox

Frederick Charles

Tendring

 

[kenf48]

16 minutes ago, Laviedechateau said:

For his service during the Great War , I have only  1 medal which is the VM and engraved as you thought to the E. SURREY REG. 

Was he entitled to the BWM too ? I don't have this but I do have his India service medal from his post war service in the SUFFOLK REG.

You could get the BWM if you 'left your native shore' but did not enter a theatre of war, however if you received the VM then you must also have received the BWM.

 

See https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/the-british-campaign-medals-for-the-great-war/

 

Two principal reasons why the BWM may be missing, it was made of silver and therefore was often sold for scrap value between the wars, or often the medals were split among family members when the soldier passed.

 

As a matter of interest and thinking about your uncle's note, the Irish Command Depot was a 'convalescent camp' where soldiers were sent to get fit for further active service after a wound or sickness.  You have noted he suffered with his 'nerves' it is therefore quite possible he was repatriated from France with 'neurasthenia' (shell shock) and after treatment posted to the Command Depot at Ballyvonare in Ireland (by all accounts a pretty awful place).

A forum Search should throw up a couple of threads, one quite recent.

Again, as ever https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/the-evacuation-chain-for-wounded-and-sick-soldiers/command-depots/

 

Presumably your uncle, or another family member had correspondence or a postcard from there?  He would probably not have been involved in peacekeeing/policing duties there, but we don't know.

[Laviedechateau]

That's very interesting kenf48. I am due to speak to my uncle soon regarding the information he might have . The picture I posted above is part of his notes. It is possible that he has the BWM medal. if not it has been lost or melted down as you suggest.

 

My uncle has noted this if it makes any sense  ? The rest of that page tells us nothing new so I am just posting this part of the notes .

[kenf48]

Fortunately for him he was not at  Ballyvonare Camp which was in Co. Cork, but the Command Depot at Tipperary (in the link above 2000 beds were allocated to Eastern Command, consistent with Essex).

He was examined by medical board and classified as Bi see https://eehe.org.uk/?p=25030

 

So no longer fit for front line duty, I think earlier in the thread someone mentioned those going to the Suffolk Regiment were less than fully fit (on iPad at moment).

 

 

Can’t help with the London Hospital, other than it’s the hospital admission you referred to earlier.  We could have a look for him in the casualty records but it’s a bit needle in a haystack.

 

[SteveE]

4 hours ago, kenf48 said:

The first paragraph has been decapitated but is incorrect.  He was entitled to the BWM and VM as previously identified here on the Suffolk Regiment Roll.  These medals would be named to the first unit he was serving with when he entered a theatre of war, i.e. the East Surrey Regiment even though he did not serve in the field with that regiment.

It is also possible they were engraved to the 1/21 London.

If the detail has come from where I think it might have, i.e. his original discharge certificate, then the paragraph about his medals is technically correct, he had no medals prior to 11-11-1918.  The only ones he could have qualified for at that time would have been, in addition to any gallantry award, the two Stars which we know he didn’t qualify for.  
His overseas service before that date did entitle him to the BWM and Victory Medals but they hadn’t been approved at that date and came later...

 

Steve

[Laviedechateau]

In the Suffolk he was a telephone orderly according to the information I have from my uncle. I do wonder why he and other soldiers signed on for another 3 years after having been in the trenches. He has the Indian service medal with Malabar and so just might have seen more action there. Possibly .

[kenf48]

11 minutes ago, Laviedechateau said:

I do wonder why he and other soldiers signed on for another 3 years after having been in the trenches.

 

In a word, money. If a soldier signed on for three years, the most commonly seen period, he received a bounty of £40, the payments paid over four instalments in addition to pay and other benefits which were uncertain in a post war society coming to terms with the financial uncertainty and losses created by the war.  They were also granted three months furlough, hence the probable time discrepancies noted in his record. 

 

Financial inducement was a strong incentive.  It was after all a peacetime army and if a wartime volunteer had adapted to Army life it was no great hardship, neither did they need to worry about finding a job in civilian life. 

His fitness category as defined in your uncle's notes showed he was fit for garrison duty either at home or abroad.  Of course we can't put ourselves in their shoes but the idea of foreign travel, all found and not returning to the drudgery and routine of peacetime must have seemed quite appealing. 

 

As a matter of record the bounty was £20 for two years and £50 for four, with commensurate furlough.  At this time the average annual wage for an unskilled worker was around £125 p.a.